2018-05-22, 01:39 PM
Here are the answers to the questions I put to Kevin Songer :
Question 1.
For instance, when you said you were above looking down on yourself (your physical body) ...you mentioned seeing the surgeons cutting and sewing etc. Did you therefore see that your chest had been opened up ? Your EEG would have been flat by then so you shouldn't have had any experience whatsoever.
"After being in the phase one (first phase area where I found myself moving down a path, surrounded on all sides by forms with energies acknowledging my presence) I moved into a 'cloud' and came out of it floating in the operating room directly above my body, the doctors and operating equipment.
This "visual" was highly crisp and detailed - like stepping from a cool dream into real life. I could hear doctors talking - surgery stuff. I remember my surgeon and the PA (Physicians assistant) in great detail as well as the nurses and equipment. They were huddled over my body. I think I was probably 20 feet away from them and they were moving arms etc doing the surgery. I recall wanting to be back in the phase one place really bad and I was a little upset that I was back in the operating room.
I wasn't happy and felt myself floating back up to the ceiling, then 'bumping' off the ceiling and coming back towards my body several times. I instinctively knew that I was not to die because I reasoned that if I was going to die, I'd be back in that really strange place that I liked. At that point I felt significant disappointment but the type A provider (that is natural for me) kicked in and I knew I would be back with my family and I was needed.
(So) Yes - I vividly saw my chest open and inner plumbing being worked."
Question 2.
Did you tell the surgeons afterwards that you had an OBE during surgery ? And if so, what was their response
"Yes, once I had recovered I did mention to my surgeon and he nodded expressionlessly. I had a rough re-entry - immediately threw up all over my incisions upon awakening and coated myself with vomit - my wife couldn't get the nurses to clean me up so I went for a good four hours or so before being cleaned.
Within a week I had developed an infection on my aorta and heart that required another open heart surgery to clean out the infection via 'pressure washing' with antifungals and antibiotics. I really thought this next surgery even though planned - (might kill me) (note my first surgery was an unplanned emergency) - but the second surgery was planned )- they'll go in and clean out the infection (endocarditis) - I was really, really 'stoked up' about going back to this phase one place again!
I did not want the surgery and was afraid I might not come out of it but the upside was (the thought of ) experiencing this NDE once more - the little bit I had been exposed to had had a highly addicting effect on me - one I wanted to go back and experience again - but alas it was nothing but 'black' from the time I was put under for second surgery until the time the surgeon woke me up.
My very first thought upon wakening was, "CRAP I didn't get to go back to that place!!" I was grateful to be awake but I did also experience some sort of depression afterwards about not getting to experience the phase one place/plane/area."
Question 3.
For the perennial sceptics and others who simply don't believe that such a thing as the human 'spirit' (or a separate consciousness) exists, please could you elaborate on what it felt like to be in that state and what characteristics it possessed ?
"I'd say.. I was ..there, who I am ...here... in so much as I recognized the (familiar) ability to assess my surroundings, including 'others' and to analyse what was happening and reason through the experience while I was there.
There is no doubt in my mind that this happened. As I mentioned I was really looking forward to going back to that place during my second open heart surgery - the one where the doctor cleaned the slimy green 'gloop' infection from around my heart.
I encountered a deep sense of disappointment when I awoke from the second surgery and had only experienced nothing - just black... until I awoke once again. This reinforced the reality of my NDE experience in my thoughts. Of course the second surgery was not emergency room spur of the moment, it was planned... so I don't think I was ever 'dead' during the second surgery. But back to the first place I went out of body - it was full of patent colours, flowing moving, full of melodious sounds akin to birds and voices singing, very peaceful yet not lullaby like - quite energizing to the contrary.
There were flying "beings" like giant butterflies all around and there were 'upright' beings walking or moving on the path where I was. Lots of 'vegetation' - like being in a tropical butterfly-house only much more brighter, colourful and very, very peaceful! There was a sort of 'terra firma' or ground it was all based upon with varying changes in topography Seems like I can remember two beings of particular interest nearby that seemed to take an interest in me... but I can't remember anything said between them and me, just that they were aware of me and 'looking at' or sensing me.
While I was there I was able to recognize that I had left the world and my family and I was in a new place and would not be seeing my family again. As I stated earlier I had no regret to having left - it all seemed so natural ! This really stuck out later because I am an 'alpha male' who loves and fiercely protects my family - I'd never think of leaving them!
I have no concept of the amount of time I was in that place - time did not seem to be a sense I had to deal with - again I am a Type A aggressive time manager here... so that didn't make sense much to me later."
Kevin is a scientist (plant biology) and like most (I think it's fair to say) prefers to remain at the very least, agnostic about whether or not there is a permanent continuation of consciousness or an "afterlife" which is still considered to be an irrational, unscientific notion aligned with self delusion, sentiment and superstition (although that is certainly changing)
"It has been almost seven years now but the experience is as fresh as it was then. Personally, at this stage in my life I am sceptical of an afterlife in general. I think we probably go back to nothingness after we die - but this is the scientist in me. But between that NDE and the fact I can believe the universe is self-directing and self-healing I have to say that my belief of nothingness after death may be flawed.
But I am not convinced (that there is an afterlife). The NDE I had is the only thing I can look to that could convince me of another plane of existence. The NDE was very real. I was in surgery for over ten hours. Thee nurses would tell my wife they and the doctors were doing their best to replace my aorta. My body was chilled (to 18 degrees C) and I (body, heart & lungs) was on the cardio pulmonary-bypass pump.
I never thought much about trying to make a point or argue one way or another about what happens when we die. I believe I left this world. Then I got re-stuck back into my body. I know what happened but am not sure what to make of it. It was really interesting though. As for the operating room that was a second phase - one where I'd left the fantasy world I write about above. The operating room experience was more cold and sterile - I explained it before. I knew I was going to go back into my body."
The extreme hypothermic protocol of this operation stops brain and organ function completely (in order to prevent the decay of the cells) and the patient is effectively dead as is explained in this link that Kevin sent me. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11389464 "The patient is indistinguishable from someone who is actually dead."
Surgeons use cold to suspend life - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk
Image caption Extreme cooling is used to stop a patient's heart during life-saving surgery Heart surgeons are using extreme cooling to allow them to stop a patient's heart long enough to carry out surgery and then revive them. "The body is essentially in true, real-life, suspended animation, with no ...
Because of my own personal view that if one can be conscious when your brain is totally non-functional, and that strongly suggests a continuation of life, [i]I asked Kevin for more clarity on his existential thoughts on what the experience meant/means to him and what seem quite logical and reasonable implications for the possibility of an "Afterlife." [/i]
"I do not know. I just don't know. What I experienced was real and I think what I experienced was a part of me that was not new - a part that has always existed - knowledge of who I was and my reasoning ability and my ability to move about. This was not a simple NDE but quite complex - hard for me to think it wasn't real or hard to think it was just imagined.
I went back and looked at the ER notes and I was cooled to 18 degrees C so there was no brain activity - like the article I sent.. I was essentially lifeless, body-wise. But there was mostly a continuum of awareness and being. As to an afterlife I would not be surprised because as I said I see the universe as self directing and self correcting - but the easy way out for me is to say that we go back to nothingness - but I can't say this with full conviction either. Guess we will find out one day...probably...who knows...
Based on this statement, I asked again about his out of body experience which clearly occurred when he had no brain activity.
I absolutely know with certainty that it was me floating in the operating room. Beyond doubt. No doubt. My body on the gurney was not me.
But I re-inhabited it (the body) later.
Question 4.
In question 3 I was trying to get a handle on what kind of "form" or "body" you were in when you were floating around. Some people have described this form as an etheric copy (a rough copy) of their physical body or a kind of 'energy body' made of 'light' that seems intangible but nevertheless is definitely "something", whatever it is.
Please could you shed any light on this...? Were you perhaps aware of a kind of "spiritual" (not the best word) body ? The entities you saw must have had form ?
Not spiritual. I was real. They were real. Very real. Like the art I draw. Form, energy, substance and being. Nothing ethereal it was all hardcopy real !
( PS - I am honoured to share this with you and others - I have no agenda with my NDE but to share what happened to me. Kevin. )
With many thanks to plant biologist, artist and lawyer, Kevin Songer
Question 1.
For instance, when you said you were above looking down on yourself (your physical body) ...you mentioned seeing the surgeons cutting and sewing etc. Did you therefore see that your chest had been opened up ? Your EEG would have been flat by then so you shouldn't have had any experience whatsoever.
"After being in the phase one (first phase area where I found myself moving down a path, surrounded on all sides by forms with energies acknowledging my presence) I moved into a 'cloud' and came out of it floating in the operating room directly above my body, the doctors and operating equipment.
This "visual" was highly crisp and detailed - like stepping from a cool dream into real life. I could hear doctors talking - surgery stuff. I remember my surgeon and the PA (Physicians assistant) in great detail as well as the nurses and equipment. They were huddled over my body. I think I was probably 20 feet away from them and they were moving arms etc doing the surgery. I recall wanting to be back in the phase one place really bad and I was a little upset that I was back in the operating room.
I wasn't happy and felt myself floating back up to the ceiling, then 'bumping' off the ceiling and coming back towards my body several times. I instinctively knew that I was not to die because I reasoned that if I was going to die, I'd be back in that really strange place that I liked. At that point I felt significant disappointment but the type A provider (that is natural for me) kicked in and I knew I would be back with my family and I was needed.
(So) Yes - I vividly saw my chest open and inner plumbing being worked."
Question 2.
Did you tell the surgeons afterwards that you had an OBE during surgery ? And if so, what was their response
"Yes, once I had recovered I did mention to my surgeon and he nodded expressionlessly. I had a rough re-entry - immediately threw up all over my incisions upon awakening and coated myself with vomit - my wife couldn't get the nurses to clean me up so I went for a good four hours or so before being cleaned.
Within a week I had developed an infection on my aorta and heart that required another open heart surgery to clean out the infection via 'pressure washing' with antifungals and antibiotics. I really thought this next surgery even though planned - (might kill me) (note my first surgery was an unplanned emergency) - but the second surgery was planned )- they'll go in and clean out the infection (endocarditis) - I was really, really 'stoked up' about going back to this phase one place again!
I did not want the surgery and was afraid I might not come out of it but the upside was (the thought of ) experiencing this NDE once more - the little bit I had been exposed to had had a highly addicting effect on me - one I wanted to go back and experience again - but alas it was nothing but 'black' from the time I was put under for second surgery until the time the surgeon woke me up.
My very first thought upon wakening was, "CRAP I didn't get to go back to that place!!" I was grateful to be awake but I did also experience some sort of depression afterwards about not getting to experience the phase one place/plane/area."
Question 3.
For the perennial sceptics and others who simply don't believe that such a thing as the human 'spirit' (or a separate consciousness) exists, please could you elaborate on what it felt like to be in that state and what characteristics it possessed ?
"I'd say.. I was ..there, who I am ...here... in so much as I recognized the (familiar) ability to assess my surroundings, including 'others' and to analyse what was happening and reason through the experience while I was there.
There is no doubt in my mind that this happened. As I mentioned I was really looking forward to going back to that place during my second open heart surgery - the one where the doctor cleaned the slimy green 'gloop' infection from around my heart.
I encountered a deep sense of disappointment when I awoke from the second surgery and had only experienced nothing - just black... until I awoke once again. This reinforced the reality of my NDE experience in my thoughts. Of course the second surgery was not emergency room spur of the moment, it was planned... so I don't think I was ever 'dead' during the second surgery. But back to the first place I went out of body - it was full of patent colours, flowing moving, full of melodious sounds akin to birds and voices singing, very peaceful yet not lullaby like - quite energizing to the contrary.
There were flying "beings" like giant butterflies all around and there were 'upright' beings walking or moving on the path where I was. Lots of 'vegetation' - like being in a tropical butterfly-house only much more brighter, colourful and very, very peaceful! There was a sort of 'terra firma' or ground it was all based upon with varying changes in topography Seems like I can remember two beings of particular interest nearby that seemed to take an interest in me... but I can't remember anything said between them and me, just that they were aware of me and 'looking at' or sensing me.
While I was there I was able to recognize that I had left the world and my family and I was in a new place and would not be seeing my family again. As I stated earlier I had no regret to having left - it all seemed so natural ! This really stuck out later because I am an 'alpha male' who loves and fiercely protects my family - I'd never think of leaving them!
I have no concept of the amount of time I was in that place - time did not seem to be a sense I had to deal with - again I am a Type A aggressive time manager here... so that didn't make sense much to me later."
Kevin is a scientist (plant biology) and like most (I think it's fair to say) prefers to remain at the very least, agnostic about whether or not there is a permanent continuation of consciousness or an "afterlife" which is still considered to be an irrational, unscientific notion aligned with self delusion, sentiment and superstition (although that is certainly changing)
"It has been almost seven years now but the experience is as fresh as it was then. Personally, at this stage in my life I am sceptical of an afterlife in general. I think we probably go back to nothingness after we die - but this is the scientist in me. But between that NDE and the fact I can believe the universe is self-directing and self-healing I have to say that my belief of nothingness after death may be flawed.
But I am not convinced (that there is an afterlife). The NDE I had is the only thing I can look to that could convince me of another plane of existence. The NDE was very real. I was in surgery for over ten hours. Thee nurses would tell my wife they and the doctors were doing their best to replace my aorta. My body was chilled (to 18 degrees C) and I (body, heart & lungs) was on the cardio pulmonary-bypass pump.
I never thought much about trying to make a point or argue one way or another about what happens when we die. I believe I left this world. Then I got re-stuck back into my body. I know what happened but am not sure what to make of it. It was really interesting though. As for the operating room that was a second phase - one where I'd left the fantasy world I write about above. The operating room experience was more cold and sterile - I explained it before. I knew I was going to go back into my body."
The extreme hypothermic protocol of this operation stops brain and organ function completely (in order to prevent the decay of the cells) and the patient is effectively dead as is explained in this link that Kevin sent me. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11389464 "The patient is indistinguishable from someone who is actually dead."
Surgeons use cold to suspend life - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk
Image caption Extreme cooling is used to stop a patient's heart during life-saving surgery Heart surgeons are using extreme cooling to allow them to stop a patient's heart long enough to carry out surgery and then revive them. "The body is essentially in true, real-life, suspended animation, with no ...
Because of my own personal view that if one can be conscious when your brain is totally non-functional, and that strongly suggests a continuation of life, [i]I asked Kevin for more clarity on his existential thoughts on what the experience meant/means to him and what seem quite logical and reasonable implications for the possibility of an "Afterlife." [/i]
"I do not know. I just don't know. What I experienced was real and I think what I experienced was a part of me that was not new - a part that has always existed - knowledge of who I was and my reasoning ability and my ability to move about. This was not a simple NDE but quite complex - hard for me to think it wasn't real or hard to think it was just imagined.
I went back and looked at the ER notes and I was cooled to 18 degrees C so there was no brain activity - like the article I sent.. I was essentially lifeless, body-wise. But there was mostly a continuum of awareness and being. As to an afterlife I would not be surprised because as I said I see the universe as self directing and self correcting - but the easy way out for me is to say that we go back to nothingness - but I can't say this with full conviction either. Guess we will find out one day...probably...who knows...
Based on this statement, I asked again about his out of body experience which clearly occurred when he had no brain activity.
I absolutely know with certainty that it was me floating in the operating room. Beyond doubt. No doubt. My body on the gurney was not me.
But I re-inhabited it (the body) later.
Question 4.
In question 3 I was trying to get a handle on what kind of "form" or "body" you were in when you were floating around. Some people have described this form as an etheric copy (a rough copy) of their physical body or a kind of 'energy body' made of 'light' that seems intangible but nevertheless is definitely "something", whatever it is.
Please could you shed any light on this...? Were you perhaps aware of a kind of "spiritual" (not the best word) body ? The entities you saw must have had form ?
Not spiritual. I was real. They were real. Very real. Like the art I draw. Form, energy, substance and being. Nothing ethereal it was all hardcopy real !
( PS - I am honoured to share this with you and others - I have no agenda with my NDE but to share what happened to me. Kevin. )
With many thanks to plant biologist, artist and lawyer, Kevin Songer