The illogic of Atheism

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"I once drank four bottles of Robittusin. I saw God. God by the way wears sun glasses".
Tom Waites

I used to meditate, till one day i finally reached nirvana and saw God.
God told me not to meditate anymore.
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(2018-04-07, 01:12 AM)malf Wrote: Evidence that the ‘notion of god’ came into existence by a different route.

I really don't understand what you are looking for. A notion is entirely human. An idea, a concept, a belief: all human. What other route is there? 

Perhaps what you are looking for is a route other than the assumption that the idea of god/gods evolved from primitive superstitions based on fear and ignorance? 

How about this: tribal societies had visionaries (shamans) who communed with the ancestors and, being unfettered by modern materialism, were able to initiate out-of-body travel to experience a spiritual reality first hand. Even today, we might find evidence of this among tribal societies.

Quote:From his conversations with their shamans and spiritual elders, Dr. Nandisvara concluded that their spiritual tradition is highly advanced and that their religious beliefs are parallel with those found in the various branches of the Perennial Philosophy.

The Aboriginal elders told Dr. Nandisvara that the spirit of a human being is always in contact with the higher spiritual realms of being, even if there may be no awareness of this contact in one's ordinary state of consciousness. They informed him that this gives to each one of us an extraordinary gift in that there can be direct communication between the human and the divine planes of being without the need for any ecclesiastical intermediary or priest.

As societies evolved and written records were kept, accounts of these experiences became formalised and visionaries became prophets around whom religions developed. Spiritual beings became gods and angels while philosophers pondered the spiritual source of all realities. So you have developments along a spiritual path, a religious path and an intellectual (philosophical) path.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
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(2018-04-06, 09:25 PM)malf Wrote: And you seem to be saying from the get-go that the tooth fairy is dreamed up. If the notion of god was not dreamed up, where did it come from?

Gee, let me think, because it's so hard for you...

I can easily imagine an NDE or a mystical experience would do the trick in convincing someone that there is something that exists beyond our comprehension or imagination or being able to be dreamed up, which requires imagination to do so.

So... there would be something that cannot truly known nor understood, yet exists.

This is not the god of religion... this is the "God" of mysticism, of philosophical meandering, the "God" whose nature is a mystery, yet the journey toward trying to understand is built upon. Thus, Plato's One, Lao Tzu's Tao, Hinduism's mystical concept of Brahman, etc.
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.”
~ Carl Jung


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Perhaps the question is “what evidence is there to support the existence of a supreme being versus that for the Tooth Fairy (or similar entity)?”.

I think it would be hard to argue there’s no evidence that might support the existence of a supreme being. However how one interprets it is another matter. I’d say I can’t think of anything that supports the existence of a Tooth Fairy.
(This post was last modified: 2018-04-07, 07:43 AM by Obiwan.)
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The phrase "supreme being" is one which I'd avoid. It carries too much baggage and associations or connotations. My feeling is that we need something much more unfettered and laden with meaning as a starting point.
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As for the tooth fairy, there is nothing mysterious or unknown at all. It is completely understood. It manifests in the form of a piece of play-acting or theatre taking place between parents and child. Once it has served its brief role, it comes to an end.
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(2018-04-07, 09:17 AM)Typoz Wrote: As for the tooth fairy, there is nothing mysterious or unknown at all. It is completely understood. It manifests in the form of a piece of play-acting or theatre taking place between parents and child. Once it has served its brief role, it comes to an end.

Now you’ve ruined it for me. You’ll be say Father Christmas isn’t true next.
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(2018-04-07, 09:17 AM)Typoz Wrote: It manifests in the form of a piece of play-acting or theatre taking place between parents and child. Once it has served its brief role, it comes to an end.

This sounds like theistic religion to me....
(2018-04-07, 07:40 AM)Obiwan Wrote: Perhaps the question is “what evidence is there to support the existence of a supreme being versus that for the Tooth Fairy (or similar entity)?”.

I think it would be hard to argue there’s no evidence that might support the existence of a supreme being. However how one interprets it is another matter. I’d say I can’t think of anything that supports the existence of a Tooth Fairy.

In the mind of a small child there’s plenty of evidence. In both cases it’s just a question of seeing through the evidence.
(2018-04-07, 06:26 PM)malf Wrote: This sounds like theistic religion to me....

And the tooth fairy argument sounds like an immature, uninformed bit that's a product of a lack of anything resembling critical thought to me.

And I don't anticipate that you'd expect "how it seems to me" to move the needle much either direction without something more, like a solid argument
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