(2018-12-04, 03:09 AM)Steve001 Wrote: Of course the universe is not reducible to only atoms. How many times must I say or insinuate this? Too many it seems. So let me state again with this example so hopefully you won't need to ask again. The example is space, it is all around us, we walk through it daily. Any object with mass distorts it. With very massive bodies that distortion becomes so extreme said distortion can be detected if our telescopes are in the line of sight (Einstein Rings and Arcs) of a massive object. Around extremely massive objects like a spinning black holes they can actually drag space around them known as Frame Dragging. Actually all spinning objects Frame Drag space. Space is also full of quantum fields seething bubbling creating virtual particles. The amazing thing most of all is space is noting yet it is something. Now hope you understand that materiality is far more expansive then how members typically use the term.
P.S. A vid worth watching. The Nature of Nothing
https://youtu.be/X5rAGfjPSWE
I suppose it would be better to ask:
"Is consciousness reducible to aspects of the physical world that lack consciousness"?
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
Can physical processes cause conscious awareness?
Possibly.
In the absence of any described non-physical processes, it’s probably too early to take that option off the table.
(2018-12-04, 09:47 AM)Brian Wrote: Exactly!
Careful Brian, he's leading you into a dead end.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
(2018-12-04, 09:37 AM)malf Wrote: All together now,
You say non-physical, I say physical, Let’s call the whole thing nature.
Non-physical and physical are not equivalent concepts that only differ by name. Even if you and Brian use the word "nature" differently.
One is... idealism, duality, perhaps ~ the other is physicalism. One basically denies the reality of consciousness altogether, and the others do not.
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.”
~ Carl Jung