The A Priori Case for the Paranormal? [companion discussion thread]

I guess I'll differ with this interpretation of the real nature of causality (that it actually is at base mental).

It seems to me that observation and common sense enter in to it, in that physical cause and effect (not mental willing or other involvement) governs the changes and movements of objects in the world, and the operation of the machinery of man's construction which by the way is essential now for his existence.

In other words, in our actual nitty gritty constantly interacted with physical reality at our level of dimensions or sizes things very very much actually behave as if physical contact and the subsequent inevitable transmission  of force from one object to another absolutely governs the way the world works. It turns out that the scientifically discovered core physical mechanism of this is that for example, one solid object stops and impels momentum when impacting another solid object because the same polarity electric fields of the atoms and molecules at the surfaces of the objects physically repel each other, and these forces imparted to the solid objects by the contact are the vast cumulative summation of these countless individually miniscule molecular/atomic/subatomic repelling forces.

All this is mechanistic and completely independent of mental causes, except for two exceptions: (1) when the mechanistically repelling electric charge forces generated between moving objects are in turn ultimately generated by the conscious volition and action of a conscious being through movement of his/her limbs and body. Only in this sense is causation at least very partially mental. The other exception, (2), is that if the Idealism issue in philosophy of mind is true, all of material reality in our world is ultimately at absolutely ground state really mental "stuff' of some perhaps humanly incomprehensible kind. Of course the Idealism exception (2) goes further in saying that  absolutely everything in reality is mental, not just causation.

I acknowledge that mental causation as an explanation for all causation is not the only option, but it isn't clear to me what argument there is for Science discovering the means of causal relations. After all there are interpretations of QM still in play that allow for all causation being mental, and at least one - Marcus Arvan's - that claims this universe is a Simulation. The latter shows there is no definitive explanation of causality to be drawn from scientific investigation. [At least, not yet...]

I believe all rational people would agree the relations have been discovered by Science are extensive, but it isn't clear why they hold. Even digging into the subatomic level to try and explain chemical reactions will still lead to the question of why the behavior is consistent - even if only stochastically - across time.

Part of the issue here is that Science discovers relations, and defines its objects of study under those relations. Yet whatever explains Causality is what enables those relations to exist at all for Science to find.

None of this means Causality *has* to be mental, but the important thing is that Causality itself being a mystery is yet another reason to not discount paranormal evidence on the grounds that it wouldn't fit into Causal Closure of the "Physical".

I guess I'll differ with this interpretation of the real nature of causality (that it actually is at base mental).

It seems to me that observation and common sense enter in to it, in that physical cause and effect (not mental willing or other involvement) governs the changes and movements of objects in the world, and the operation of the machinery of man's construction which by the way is essential now for his existence.

Well... what is the source of physical cause and effect? Why do physical things exist at all? Why do they interact in the particular ways they are observed to, and not in other ways? We could look towards the quantum for answers... but then we'd be left with the same questions about the quantum.

The irony is that physical cause and effect only exists within sensory observation... so the mental is the base in this regard, putting aside any higher spiritual aspects for the moment that could themselves be the basis for the mental.

In other words, in our actual nitty gritty constantly interacted with physical reality at our level of dimensions or sizes things very very much actually behave as if physical contact and the subsequent inevitable transmission  of force from one object to another absolutely governs the way the world works. It turns out that the scientifically discovered core physical mechanism of this is that for example, one solid object stops and impels momentum when impacting another solid object because the same polarity electric fields of the atoms and molecules at the surfaces of the objects physically repel each other, and these forces imparted to the solid objects by the contact are the vast cumulative summation of these countless individually miniscule molecular/atomic/subatomic repelling forces.

All this is mechanistic and completely independent of mental causes, except for two exceptions: (1) when the mechanistically repelling electric charge forces generated between moving objects are in turn ultimately generated by the conscious volition and action of a conscious being through movement of his/her limbs and body. Only in this sense is causation at least very partially mental. The other exception, (2), is that if the Idealism issue in philosophy of mind is true, all of material reality in our world is ultimately at absolutely ground state really mental "stuff' of some perhaps humanly incomprehensible kind. Of course the Idealism exception (2) goes further in saying that  absolutely everything in reality is mental, not just causation.

Completely independent of mental causes...? Really, when everything about the physical is known purely through sensory observation, which is itself purely mental in nature? The physical phenomena we observe are the result of the senses interpreting particular kinds of noumena ~ we know nothing about the noumena themselves, only the phenomenal interpretations that we call "physical".

I do not think that the physical is mentally caused... but rather, spiritually caused. Mind and matter have their root in spirit, soul, whatever higher existence there is.

Well... what is the source of physical cause and effect? Why do physical things exist at all? Why do they interact in the particular ways they are observed to, and not in other ways? We could look towards the quantum for answers... but then we'd be left with the same questions about the quantum.

The irony is that physical cause and effect only exists within sensory observation... so the mental is the base in this regard, putting aside any higher spiritual aspects for the moment that could themselves be the basis for the mental.


Completely independent of mental causes...? Really, when everything about the physical is known purely through sensory observation, which is itself purely mental in nature? The physical phenomena we observe are the result of the senses interpreting particular kinds of noumena ~ we know nothing about the noumena themselves, only the phenomenal interpretations that we call "physical".

I do not think that the physical is mentally caused... but rather, spiritually caused. Mind and matter have their root in spirit, soul, whatever higher existence there is.

One problem with this is that there are extremely numerous ways in which what is common sense believed to be a physical cause is correlated with a corresponding what is believed to be a physical effect. You need to explain why reality has apparently been deviously designed to convincingly mimic or imitate physical cause and effect, when in reality all "causation" is mental.

And do physical cause and effect only exist due to sensory observation (which ultimately happens in consciousness, that is, in the mental domain), and therefore cause and effect are ultimately mental?  

First, that doesn't consider the fact that humans' physical scientific instrumentation also reliably detects and measures cause and effect relationships, so in this case human observation of the instrumentation results comes after the actual detection/measurement by physical instrumentation. 

Second, another problem is that if the sensory observation reasoning is still correct, all of the physical domain of matter and energy, not just causality, would be mental also. Then the question is mental what? - that is, it obviously isn't human mental activity; it must be the mental activity of some other being(s), evidently deliberately convincingly imitating or mimicing an objective physical reality including cause and effect (which immediately goes to the question of why this?). 

And ultimately anyway it's an infinite regress. 

I agree that mind and matter both "have their root in spirit, soul", but it seems to me that the apparently important practical process of humans living a physical life entails an immediate physical reality that to enable the physical has its own laws such as cause and effect (and also interactive dualism for example), which laws are probably subsidiary to ultimate reality.

One problem with this is that there are extremely numerous ways in which what is common sense believed to be a physical cause is correlated with a corresponding what is believed to be a physical effect. You need to explain why reality has apparently been deviously designed to convincingly mimic or imitate physical cause and effect, when in reality all "causation" is mental.

And do physical cause and effect only exist due to sensory observation (which ultimately happens in consciousness, that is, in the mental domain), and therefore cause and effect are ultimately mental?  

First, that doesn't consider the fact that humans' physical scientific instrumentation also reliably detects and measures cause and effect relationships, so in this case human observation of the instrumentation results comes after the actual detection/measurement by physical instrumentation. 

Second, another problem is that if the sensory observation reasoning is still correct, all of the physical domain of matter and energy, not just causality, would be mental also. Then the question is mental what? - that is, it obviously isn't human mental activity; it must be the mental activity of some other being(s), evidently deliberately convincingly imitating or mimicing an objective physical reality including cause and effect (which immediately goes to the question of why this?). 

And ultimately anyway it's an infinite regress. 

I agree that mind and matter both "have their root in spirit, soul", but it seems to me that the apparently important practical process of humans living a physical life entails an immediate physical reality that to enable the physical has its own laws such as cause and effect (and also interactive dualism for example), which laws are probably subsidiary to ultimate reality.

All causation being mental doesn’t explicitly mean Idealism has to be true. 

If reality is Designed then all causal relations are mental in the sense of being set by some Mind(s). What would be the means by which said Minds can make such relations hold across time? How do they make “physical” stuff such that it is amenable to PK?

One doesn’t have to insist causation is mental, but there is no default hypothesis explained by simply saying there is “physical” causation any more than a Materialist saying “emergence” is how non-conscious matter creates consciousness counts as an explanation. 

As for accusations of deception, those hold for any position that claims this reality is Designed, given said Designers are not showing themselves to us.

One problem with this is that there are extremely numerous ways in which what is common sense believed to be a physical cause is correlated with a corresponding what is believed to be a physical effect. You need to explain why reality has apparently been deviously designed to convincingly mimic or imitate physical cause and effect, when in reality all "causation" is mental.

And do physical cause and effect only exist due to sensory observation (which ultimately happens in consciousness, that is, in the mental domain), and therefore cause and effect are ultimately mental? 

I fear that you have completely misunderstood my comment ~ but maybe I didn't communicate clearly enough.

Reality is not be "deviously" designed to "mimic" or "imitate" anything. This implies that the physical exists in and of itself, with us only being shown a simulation ~ this is not the case.

The physical reality we observe is only known through the mental senses, shaped by the physical form ~ we have nothing else to go by. Cause and effect are ultimately spiritual ~ that is, the root of physical cause and effect was designed by a spiritual existence to allow for a physical reality that incarnate entities can interact with, and through.

The "physical form" here isn't the matter, by the way ~ it's more the aura that organizes the matter of the body, while itself then being amenable to influence by physical changes. I really need to find a better way to communicate this...

First, that doesn't consider the fact that humans' physical scientific instrumentation also reliably detects and measures cause and effect relationships, so in this case human observation of the instrumentation results comes after the actual detection/measurement by physical instrumentation. 

Second, another problem is that if the sensory observation reasoning is still correct, all of the physical domain of matter and energy, not just causality, would be mental also. Then the question is mental what? - that is, it obviously isn't human mental activity; it must be the mental activity of some other being(s), evidently deliberately convincingly imitating or mimicing an objective physical reality including cause and effect (which immediately goes to the question of why this?). 

And ultimately anyway it's an infinite regress.

The mental is merely doing with the physical observations that it can, and so, does. The mental is not the source ~ it is merely the witness and actor.

There is no "infinite regress" here ~ just your misinterpretation of what I was trying to say.

Replace "mental causes" with "spiritual causes" for physical cause and effect, and maybe you'll be less confused.

It makes more and more sense that the mental ~ the manifestation of the spiritual within the physical ~ is not the source of the physical. It is too intertwined with matter, so limited by it, to have any creative power. It is spiritual power that can influence matter ~ and is perhaps the source of paranormal abilities, even.

I agree that mind and matter both "have their root in spirit, soul", but it seems to me that the apparently important practical process of humans living a physical life entails an immediate physical reality that to enable the physical has its own laws such as cause and effect (and also interactive dualism for example), which laws are probably subsidiary to ultimate reality.

The physical cannot have its own laws ~ there is no evidence that the physical exists in and of itself, independently of prior causal powers.

Physical laws have their root in the quantum, which has its roots in the spiritual. But, as science and the mind generally cannot sense or know directly about the quantum, it is stuck believing that there is only the physical, with the appearance of being ultimately distinct from the mind.

Mind has its roots in the spiritual too ~ so mind and matter "converge", as it were, on the spiritual, being the ultimate source of both.

In summary ~ the physical is not mentally caused, but spiritually caused. Minds interact with the physical through incarnation into physical forms.

All causation being mental doesn’t explicitly mean Idealism has to be true.

Which is why it's perhaps more clear to refer to all causation is being spiritual ~ the spiritual is of a higher order than the mental, the mental being the level at which incarnate minds such as our human ones exist, which have certainly not been responsible for causing the physical ~ or whatever the true nature of the physical actually is, noumenally. We merely apprehend the noumenal as physical phenomena, but that doesn't mean we know the true nature of it... thus we cannot be the cause of the physical.

If reality is Designed then all causal relations are mental in the sense of being set by some Mind(s). What would be the means by which said Minds can make such relations hold across time? How do they make “physical” stuff such that it is amenable to PK?

One doesn’t have to insist causation is mental, but there is no default hypothesis explained by simply saying there is “physical” causation any more than a Materialist saying “emergence” is how non-conscious matter creates consciousness counts as an explanation.

Given that we have no idea as to the actual nature of causation for either the mental or the physical, we must perhaps necessarily posit something of a higher order that can logically be the source of causation, allowing the mental and physical to interact causally ~ even if the physical has no direct effect on the mental, it still has strong influences on the mental through the physical form, the mental using the physical form to enact its influence on other physical stuff.

For me, that source can be called "spirit" or "soul" ~ a spiritual cause. If that source is "God", as it were, then divine? We generally understand basically nothing about the nature of the higher orders of existence, so maybe it is meaningless to speculate too much... for all of my experiences, I still feel like I understand basically nothing at all, like a helpless, flailing infant that has just been born, perhaps...

As for accusations of deception, those hold for any position that claims this reality is Designed, given said Designers are not showing themselves to us.

Indeed... what if it is not so much that we are being "deceived" so much as that the nature of physical incarnation makes it impossible for us to know the Designers in any direct fashion? We see only the effects, never the causes... and then we can, and do, so often mistake the effects that we can see for actual causes, when our ability to perceive is quite limited...

I fear that you have completely misunderstood my comment ~ but maybe I didn't communicate clearly enough.

Reality is not be "deviously" designed to "mimic" or "imitate" anything. This implies that the physical exists in and of itself, with us only being shown a simulation ~ this is not the case.

The physical reality we observe is only known through the mental senses, shaped by the physical form ~ we have nothing else to go by. Cause and effect are ultimately spiritual ~ that is, the root of physical cause and effect was designed by a spiritual existence to allow for a physical reality that incarnate entities can interact with, and through.

The "physical form" here isn't the matter, by the way ~ it's more the aura that organizes the matter of the body, while itself then being amenable to influence by physical changes. I really need to find a better way to communicate this...


The mental is merely doing with the physical observations that it can, and so, does. The mental is not the source ~ it is merely the witness and actor.

There is no "infinite regress" here ~ just your misinterpretation of what I was trying to say.

Replace "mental causes" with "spiritual causes" for physical cause and effect, and maybe you'll be less confused.

It makes more and more sense that the mental ~ the manifestation of the spiritual within the physical ~ is not the source of the physical. It is too intertwined with matter, so limited by it, to have any creative power. It is spiritual power that can influence matter ~ and is perhaps the source of paranormal abilities, even.


The physical cannot have its own laws ~ there is no evidence that the physical exists in and of itself, independently of prior causal powers.

Physical laws have their root in the quantum, which has its roots in the spiritual. But, as science and the mind generally cannot sense or know directly about the quantum, it is stuck believing that there is only the physical, with the appearance of being ultimately distinct from the mind.

Mind has its roots in the spiritual too ~ so mind and matter "converge", as it were, on the spiritual, being the ultimate source of both.

In summary ~ the physical is not mentally caused, but spiritually caused. Minds interact with the physical through incarnation into physical forms.

My major point here was that the actual physical world (as an observed fact constantly and consistently engaged with by humans ) as a very practical matter essential to human life on the Earth behaves almost exactly like or as if the physical exists as an objective system incorporating the purely objective physical mechanical/logical relation called "cause and effect". In our physical lives it is an almost uniformly followed rule of the behavior of the physical world. The world actually does behave almost exactly as if "the physical exists in and of itself", an independent and objectively observed and interacted with system including our own bodies, in which matter and energy behave on the Earth at the human level almost exactly according to the notion of purely physical cause and effect.

You say this is not really the case. Maybe so. Then you need to explain how and why. I suggest that the most likely explanation is that we are being deceived, perhaps for our own good in order to enable limited physical life on the Earth. In this I apparently agree with you.

Cause and effect may indeed be ultimately spiritual and mental in some sense, but that is from some very higher mental or spiritual perspective, one that we can't for the most part observe or fully understand or engage with at our level of existence. Paranormal phenomena may be a glimpse of this higher level of existent reality.

Concerning "infinite regress". If our limited by cause and effect physical world is a relatively low level of existence designed by higher spiritual intelligence(s) to foster and allow human life on the Earth in all its challenging forms, then logically (as in the model where the world is a virtual reality simulation being generated by higher beings), it might be expected that there is an infinite regress where there is a yet higher level of existence in which this virtual reality world simulation is being virtual reality simulated by yet higher reality beings, and so on ad infinitum. This reasoning applies here also. This argument is usually used against there actually being a virtual reality world.

Is the mental too intertwined with and limited by matter to have any creative power? I don't think so. Human artistic, musical, literary and other creative powers are well attested to and are essential to human life. This must be from the harmonious manifestation of the spiritual within the mental lives of the creative humans involved. In reality the mental shares many characteristics with the spiritual, in that mental phenomena such as thought, reasoning, qualia, etc. are like spirit, nonphysical but very real, so there is no clear demarkation beween the two. And human creativity arises from both nonphysical mental and spiritual sources within these humans. This merging is also exemplified by the continued mental activity of NDErs during their OBEs out of body, apparently existing at least temporarily in spiritual not physical form but still exhibiting mental activity.

"The physical cannot have its own laws ~ there is no evidence that the physical exists in and of itself, independently of prior causal powers." Really?

My previous argument lays out some of the reasons why in our particular level of reality (which is what we are most concerned about), from our physically living perspective the physical does in fact exist within itself as a stubbornly independently existent aspect of our world reality. Within our level of reality the physical does in fact of observation obey the laws of physics, and our technological civilization could not exist without this very consistent lawlike behavior of matter and energy. The creative origin of this lawlike behavior of our universe is another question - it must be spiritual intelligence of an extremely high order.

"In summary ~ the physical is not mentally caused, but spiritually caused. Minds interact with the physical through incarnation into physical forms."

I agree. But the spiritual cause of the physical reality of our world is a level of spiritual being(s) very far beyond our ken. In the mean time we must of necessity deal with the world as it is to us in our physical reality. That reality intimately incorporates (of necessity) the existence of a pervasive phenomenon called physical cause and effect which to us is stubbornly, physically, not just mentally or spiritually, real.

The "physical" is just the consensus observation and experience (memory) of how to exploit patterns for our own benefit. "Third person" is always just a summing of "First person" experiences. This is no more an explanation of causality than gamers in an MMO agreeing that certain crafting rules to make stronger weapons hold as "laws" in the game world and so can be replicated for different gamers' benefit.

The "physical" having such mathematical regularity is also curious, given that the foundations of mathematics is the mental reality where the truth of a proof like the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus is decided.

But most importantly, if causes are "physical" what exactly does this mean? Is there a nature at some level where particles are indivisible, or is all that is "physical" excitation of some field or collection of fields? Given the stochastic behavior at the QM level is this nature probabilistic, and if so how does even a Designer imbue something with an indeterministic nature that is not mental? 

Are causes dispositions, and if so what does it mean to have a nonmental "disposition"?

It's very hard to actually talk about causation without drawing from our own experience, because out of all the possible things that *could* happen it seems one future state gets selected (decided on?). 

This doesn't mean any particular way of wedding physical causes to Mind is correct, it could be a top-down Theism or a more pluralistic Animism or some combination of varied positions. It just means that cause-effect relations hold because there is a Mind to hold them and select from the possible things that could happen in a consistent enough way.

The "physical" is just the consensus observation and experience (memory) of how to exploit patterns for our own benefit. "Third person" is always just a summing of "First person" experiences. This is no more an explanation of causality than gamers in an MMO agreeing that certain crafting rules to make stronger weapons hold as "laws" in the game world and so can be replicated for different gamers' benefit.

The "physical" having such mathematical regularity is also curious, given that the foundations of mathematics is the mental reality where the truth of a proof like the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus is decided.

But most importantly, if causes are "physical" what exactly does this mean? Is there a nature at some level where particles are indivisible, or is all that is "physical" excitation of some field or collection of fields? Given the stochastic behavior at the QM level is this nature probabilistic, and if so how does even a Designer imbue something with an indeterministic nature that is not mental? 

Are causes dispositions, and if so what does it mean to have a nonmental "disposition"?

It's very hard to actually talk about causation without drawing from our own experience, because out of all the possible things that *could* happen it seems one future state gets selected (decided on?). 

This doesn't mean any particular way of wedding physical causes to Mind is correct, it could be a top-down Theism or a more pluralistic Animism or some combination of varied positions. It just means that cause-effect relations hold because there is a Mind to hold them and select from the possible things that could happen in a consistent enough way.

My view is that physical cause and effect is a brute fact of our existence in the world and doesn't have to be explained to know that as a practical matter it is real and independent of our minds and spirits. In fact, cause and effect obviously also operates in our mental realm.

We don't need to know what it really is, perhaps a superintelligent and superpowerful intelligence actually choosing and actualizing outcomes at every causal branching, or whatever, to know that cause and effect rules our reality level independently of our minds and spirits. Cause and effect is a principle of our existence that presumably originates in some superintelligent creative spiritual being(s), a level transcendentally far beyond our thoughts and imaginations. It doesn't originate at our level of the mental and spiritual.

However, I would actually agree that cause and effect is in fact really "mental", but only transcendentally as part of a design originating far beyond our understanding.

My view is that physical cause and effect is a brute fact of our existence in the world and doesn't have to be explained to know that as a practical matter it is real and independent of our minds and spirits. In fact, cause and effect obviously also operates in our mental realm.

We don't need to know what it really is, perhaps a superintelligent and superpowerful intelligence actually choosing and actualizing outcomes at every causal branching, or whatever, to know that cause and effect rules our reality level independently of our minds and spirits. Cause and effect is a principle of our existence that presumably originates in some superintelligent creative spiritual being(s), a level transcendentally far beyond our thoughts and imaginations. It doesn't originate at our level of the mental and spiritual.

However, I would actually agree that cause and effect is in fact really "mental", but only transcendentally as part of a design originating far beyond our understanding.

I would agree that for most of modern daily life, cause-effect relations can be treated as "brute fact" just as in video games one can fight aliens, cast spells, and so on without considering the computer science/engineering that underlies the games.

But I am not sure cause-effect is completely outside our own minds/spirits. Synchronicity & PK being the most obvious examples, but even our ability to measure the world with our mathematics suggests we have at the very least a way to grasp the world's intelligibility due to the our own intellectual ability as a species.

My main point here would be that if causality cannot really be explained in physicalist terms, there is no point in a skeptic bringing up "causal closure of the physical" to rule out Psi or Survival. That it seems we agree on.