Some defence of substance dualism

But is this by necessity something that must be connected to the QM level?

I supposed, to some degree, almost all proponent positions would be strengthened by the necessary (but insufficient) correlate-of-consciousness in the brain to be at the level of quantum biology.

However I think this idea of a very lawful, mechanistic physical universe and a spiritual being that is free from said laws feels like an odd combination. It seems better for both Psi and Survival if this universe and the spiritual universe are not so distinct in nature.

Heck, even this suggestion that something at the quantum level - the foundational level of matter AFAIK - is influenced by the activity of the soul is suggesting there is a causal continuity between matter & mind. Is the idea here that every spirit has some minimal PK ability, but can only shift particles at the QM level?

Actually according to the article I’m referencing in this thread:

If mind is not a part of the physical universe but is able to influence brain events, then violations of physical laws should occur at points of such mental influence. Using current knowledge of how the nervous system functions, the minimal necessary magnitude of such violations is examined.…
A variety of influences that could produce action potentials is considered, including the direct opening of sodium channels in membranes, the triggering of release of neurotransmitter at synapses, the opening of postsynaptic, ligand-gated channels, and the control of neuromodulation. It is shown that the magnitude of the disturbance required is significantly greater than allowed for under quantum-mechanical uncertainty.

I haven’t followed this argument to its end since I'm out of my depth when it comes to biology, but it suggests that the influence of the nonphysical mind must be well above the QM level.

Anyway, I think you touch upon the reasons why substance dualism fell out of favor (in academia) centuries ago.

Still, for most people, substance dualism feels obviously true. In my view, it is also the philosophy of mind that offers the best hope for survival.

Sadly, our intuitions about the world are not always true. Whatever reality is, it is immensely complex. A great example is time, which is not how we intuitively perceive it.

Therefore, I don’t assign much value to the argument that substance dualism feels true.

Surely a similar argument could have been used (and maybe was) against QM? The whole body of science would need reworking if QM were true.

A variety of influences that could produce action potentials is considered, including the direct opening of sodium channels in membranes, the triggering of release of neurotransmitter at synapses, the opening of postsynaptic, ligand-gated channels, and the control of neuromodulation. It is shown that the magnitude of the disturbance required is significantly greater than allowed for under quantum-mechanical uncertainty.

The problem as I see it, is that QM effects are small, form a statistical scatter which extends out to infinity. If a dualistic interaction is being exerted, who knows how that might skew the statistical distribution.

David

Actually according to the article I’m referencing in this thread:


I haven’t followed this argument to its end since I'm out of my depth when it comes to biology, but it suggests that the influence of the nonphysical mind must be well above the QM level.

Anyway, I think you touch upon the reasons why substance dualism fell out of favor (in academia) centuries ago.

Still, for most people, substance dualism feels obviously true. In my view, it is also the philosophy of mind that offers the best hope for survival.

Sadly, our intuitions about the world are not always true. Whatever reality is, it is immensely complex. A great example is time, which is not how we intuitively perceive it.

Therefore, I don’t assign much value to the argument that substance dualism feels true.

I'm not convinced by the article, since Stapp at the very least has offered certain ways that Quantum Dualism would be true. Hammeroff arguably offered another, though he leans more in a Platonic (Penrose influence?) + Panpsychic direction, and there do seem to be - in line with Orch OR - some quantum biological behaviors in the brain. The degree to which the presence of said behaviors

I actually think Substance Dualism, at least as Des Cartes imagined it, hurts Survival more than it helps. This idea of trying to insist the brain is "physical" but the mind is "non-physical" creates a needless hurdle IMO. I also don't think this is inline with the overall evidence of the paranormal, with the dualism of brain and spirit being functional rather than two different substances.

The whole idea of physical closure, to me, is just laughable. We don't have an explanation for Consciousness, and we also don't actually have an explanation for Causation. The very idea that we can deny the afterlife based on current physics is just propaganda from the materialist faith IMO...

Yes substance dualism depends on a mechanism for the nonphysical mind to both alter and read the state of e.g a human brain.

The interaction actually seems to go both ways with interactive dualism.  It also requires a mechanism for the state of the physical brain neuronal structures to alter the nonphysical mind, when there is an intricate intertwining of the spirit with the brain neuronal structures,  to result in a human consciousness subject intimately both  to brain microphysical state and also to the nonphysical spirit mind.

I'm not convinced by the article, since Stapp at the very least has offered certain ways that Quantum Dualism would be true. Hammeroff arguably offered another, though he leans more in a Platonic (Penrose influence?) + Panpsychic direction, and there do seem to be - in line with Orch OR - some quantum biological behaviors in the brain. The degree to which the presence of said behaviors

I actually think Substance Dualism, at least as Des Cartes imagined it, hurts Survival more than it helps. This idea of trying to insist the brain is "physical" but the mind is "non-physical" creates a needless hurdle IMO. I also don't think this is inline with the overall evidence of the paranormal, with the dualism of brain and spirit being functional rather than two different substances.

The whole idea of physical closure, to me, is just laughable. We don't have an explanation for Consciousness, and we also don't actually have an explanation for Causation. The very idea that we can deny the afterlife based on current physics is just propaganda from the materialist faith IMO...

Could you explain this? Doesn't a very apparent functional separation as if of two different substances with limited and specialized interaction, clearly point to some sort of interactional dualism?

Could you explain this? Doesn't a very apparent functional separation as if of two different substances with limited and specialized interaction, clearly point to some sort of interactional dualism?

Just my usual arguments I've laid out before:

- It's incredibly unclear what the "physical" is supposed to be. Physics captures the relational data, but does not give us an accounting of "essence" - what things are. And so the "physical" is then just data and mathematics, the first of which is a collection of conscious observations and the latter a collection of mental objects buttressed by logic which again is mental.

- PK, and arguably even other forms of Psi, demand causal continuity of some sort between the "physical" and the "spiritual". The fact the OOBEr can see and be seen (and sometimes even felt) also means there is a causal chain moving between the spiritual and physical levels.

- Ectoplasm suggests there is actually a continuity of substance, just in different "states".

- The varied Deep Weird cases, whether of spirits or "ultra-terrestrials" also suggests the physical "stuff" is not lawful in the way physics claims it is.

- Even when Survival evidence discusses other realities, those realities have some "physical" aspects - namely extension in space - that Descartes felt was a key attribute of the physical world. However spatial extension is tied in with our experience of the world, so it isn't even clear how one makes the proper division between that which is "physical" and that which is mental or spiritual.

- If Dualists are going to insist that the interaction between Mind and Matter happens at the quantum level, they are still positing causal continuity. At which point we have to ask, in line with all the aforementioned points, why does the QM level of matter allow for causal interaction but the classical level does not?

Of course there is the functional, observed dualism that we have a body that becomes a corpse but until then serves as our vehicle in this world. But this is not a dualism of substances, because ultimately it seems there is one primordial substance that makes up Everything. The alternative, IMO, would not be Dualism but Pluralism where you have many substances that have some overlapping causal continuity but I think this invites a lot of needless complexity for questionable gain.

- Ectoplasm suggests there is actually a continuity of substance, just in different "states".

Ectoplasm - seriously??  It’s reminds me of the danish medium Einer Nielsen who was caught in the act of fetching cheesecloth from his rectum during a seance in Norway in 1922.

Ectoplasm - seriously??  It’s reminds me of the danish medium Einer Nielsen who was caught in the act of fetching cheesecloth from his rectum during a seance in Norway in 1922.

I'm taking a broader view of the term, which extends from the experiences of varied people in medium circles to the reports of anthropologists like Edith Turner who noted substances that seem akin to what medium circles report.

I would agree that physical mediumship seems to have some of the most controversial cases, but across the world there are reports of substances tied to the spirit world that nonetheless have some physical aspect. As such, as per my general view of witness reports, I think there's enough there to give some credence to "ectoplasm".

Ectoplasm - seriously??  It’s reminds me of the danish medium Einer Nielsen who was caught in the act of fetching cheesecloth from his rectum during a seance in Norway in 1922.

You really need to get a bit realistic. Nobody doubts that there have been some fakes in this business. Nobody should also doubt that other psychics have been pushed to cheat on occasion. They are put under enormous pressure - fail once and that is it - that things can go wrong. Uri Geller was caught one faking something, and yet he has been tested by many scientists without failure.

We don't lash out at scientists if occasionally their experiments fails to work.

David

You really need to get a bit realistic. Nobody doubts that there have been some fakes in this business. Nobody should also doubt that other psychics have been pushed to cheat on occasion. They are put under enormous pressure - fail once and that is it - that things can go wrong. Uri Geller was caught one faking something, and yet he has been tested by many scientists without failure.

We don't lash out at scientists if occasionally their experiments fails to work.

David

To be fair a scientist caught performing fraud is likely to have their career severely diminished to outright ruined?