She Spoke to the Dead. They Told Her to Free the Slaves.

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(2022-02-02, 07:11 PM)North Wrote: I see no reference to spheres nor medieval ideas, but wont continue the discussion.

Since I was very obtuse the first time, here is my explanation. As I said, I could be totally wrong.

Okay, Rumi, being a man of his time, subscribed to a version of the chain of being - that creation is organised in a hierarchy of nested spheres with the earth at its centre and God at the top or outer rim. He makes reference to these spheres in a number of his poems describing the soul's descent and ascent from source. For example, Islam describes these spheres as having 100 000 way stations which one has to travel through. Correspondingly, Rumi mentions this 100 000 explicitly a few times in connection to the process of spiritual ascent or descent. 

The lowest sphere is the lunar and contains the four elements (fire, air, water, and earth), this elemental sphere governs the three elemental kingdoms (mineral, plant and animal), and is followed by the various celestial spheres, the home of the angels, and eventually the Throne of God. 

So, you see, with all that in mind, the poem could be something quite other than an early precursor to biological evolution or even a representation of the transmigration of the soul. It's really rather orthodox in my view: Rumi descended the celestial hierarchy to be born a human. When he dies, he shall re ascend, eventually reaching God.

“I died as mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was human,
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die human,
To soar with angels blessed above.
And when I sacrifice my angel soul
I shall become what no mind ever conceived.
As a human, I will die once more,
Reborn, I will with the angels soar.
And when I let my angel body go,
I shall be more than mortal mind can know.”
Formerly dpdownsouth. Let me dream if I want to.
(This post was last modified: 2022-02-07, 10:05 AM by woethekitty. Edited 3 times in total.)
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(2022-02-07, 09:18 AM)woethekitty Wrote: Since I was very obtuse the first time, here is my explanation. As I said, I could be totally wrong.

Okay, Rumi, being a man of his time

If Rumi was only a man of  his time, why would he be of interest to many in contemporary times?
Is Plato only interesting as a man of his time?
I dont think you know enough of Islamic dogma to see why the poem is heretical and not of its time and community.

I don't think you are versed in Sufi cosmology and views on evolution.

Originally you asked a question about evidence, I provided one well known example and it was dismissed.

I think it is a nice poem, I don't think poetry needs only have one interpretation, I think Rumi has many interesting things for us to consider even in 2022.
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(2022-02-07, 05:02 PM)North Wrote: I think Rumi has many interesting things for us to consider even in 2022.


I agree. Except I believe what he has to say to us in 2022 is exactly and precisely the same as what he had to say to us in the 13th century. 

On the rest, I think there is enough in Islam and Rumi for a journey through the celestial spheres to make more sense than transmigration or biological evolution. To me, this enhances it's value, rather than diminishes it.

I'm sorry if I came across as dismissive and I'm the first to admit that I am in essence a hack.

Have a good one.
Formerly dpdownsouth. Let me dream if I want to.
(This post was last modified: 2022-02-07, 07:51 PM by woethekitty. Edited 1 time in total.)
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(2022-02-03, 03:08 AM)Ninshub Wrote: And allegedly mediums visiting Abraham Lincoln at the White House urged issuing the Emancipation Proclamation.

Sorry I missed these posts of yours a few months back - very interesting stuff. Mediumship is probably the trickiest of all the potential Survival evidence. There are obviously nonsensical claims - the Native American girl named "Chlorine" being the go to example - and even claims that spirits of slaves loved slavery. Hard not to think this is the prejudice of the medium more than any message from beyond, though of course the dead themselves could be evil and manipulative.

Yet as you point out here there is also a counter to this, and the stuff Stephen W posted shows that followers of Swedenborg were dedicated to abolition.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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How much of this can be attributed to brain inflammation effects? We may never know, unless we have similar things happening today that can be studied. Much of history is so foul with lies that we may never know. Heresay remains heresay.

Source

Quote:She died at home in Plymouth Notch on July 6, 1862, at the age of 34. Her death record at the Plymouth town office states, in handwriting that has faded with time, “inflammation of the brain,” according to Plymouth town clerk Sandie Small. Today we would call that meningitis.
Of relevance in the context of this thread to the question of socially progressive communications from spirits:

The Radical Origins of Spiritualism - Revolutionary Communication with the Dead

Hat-tip to @Aussie Mike.
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