Robert Lea on ghosts and the laws of physics

The way I look at ghosts interacting in the world is kinda the same way I look at non-local consciousness.
If we found that consciousness was non-local, that would mean a non-material force interacting with the physical living material but still as physical as a wall or car keys or steel chains and such.
So the physical would have a second unknown property, ability to interact with the non-physical.
Now, maybe we don't know or we can't prove in a material/physical way that matter can be manipulated or controlled by the non-physical. Maybe ghosts or consciousness are non-contact forces like electromagnetism or gravity. Those we can test and measure. Maybe we don't have the means to test those yet.

I think nothing of it. But what you're asking I think is why doesn't that experience by three people I trust make me more receptive. The answer is, there's no incontrovertible empirical evidence.


Classical physics.

I never asked what a ghost is made of. I have no empirical evidence. I have a friend of nearly 40 years who would likely see eye to eye with what you know is true. I posed that very same question Cox has to her a very longtime ago. No matter what I said I could not get her to see that a ghost must be physical because it interacts with us.

"The answer is, there's no incontrovertible empirical evidence."

You mean absolute proof that ghosts exist ? The best you're going to get is beyond reasonable doubt, Steve and we don't have that for ghosts.

We have enough evidence that the mind can function without the brain though, without proving it (isn't proof only found in Maths ?) to at least entertain the idea that something "ghostly" is going on.  

"No matter what I said I could not get her to see that a ghost must be physical because it interacts with us."

No, that's not right. The mind isn't physical but it interacts with us, even if you just believe it makes your hand pick up your beer.

"The answer is, there's no incontrovertible empirical evidence."

You mean absolute proof that ghosts exist ? The best you're going to get is beyond reasonable doubt, Steve and we don't have that for ghosts.

We have enough evidence that the mind can function without the brain though, without proving it (isn't proof only found in Maths ?) to at least entertain the idea that something "ghostly" is going on.  

"No matter what I said I could not get her to see that a ghost must be physical because it interacts with us."

No, that's not right. The mind isn't physical but it interacts with us, even if you just believe it makes your hand pick up your beer.

Reasonable doubt ain't good enough for universal truth. It's fine for personal truth.
Don't lump me in with the rest of what you wrote.

The word physical doesn't just mean made of matter.

Reasonable doubt ain't good enough for universal truth. It's fine for personal truth.
Don't lump me in with the rest of what you wrote.

The word physical doesn't just mean made of matter.

"Reasonable doubt ain't good enough for universal truth."

There's never been a universal truth, Steve. It's been a gradual progression or a "changing of previously accepted ideas" based on new findings, always. Or it may be that we've done it all before and lost it. But I don't believe there will ever be a universal truth as such, not in the physical world anyway.

 "The word physical doesn't just mean made of matter."

Could you explain what you mean by that ?

tim
[quote pid='10273' dateline='1509114597']

"Reasonable doubt ain't good enough for universal truth."

There's never been a universal truth, Steve. It's been a gradual progression or a "changing of previously accepted ideas" based on new findings, always. Or it may be that we've done it all before and lost it. But I don't believe there will ever be a universal truth as such, not in the physical world anyway.

 "The word physical doesn't just mean made of matter."

Could you explain what you mean by that ?
[/quote]
I think we have two different perspectives going on here. Philosophical and practical. When I say physical I'm not just including matter but also forces such as gravity and all of the other forces of nature. 

There are universal truths such as gravity is always pulling you down. Playing with fire will eventually burn you. Everyone dies. These are all universal truths because they are independent of any philosophical trappings. You implied the only universal truths are in the immaterial world. Why would that be more true?

As for my friend not able to understand what I was saying I don't know why not. What I do know is she chooses to see the world from New Age perspective.

tim
[quote pid='10273' dateline='1509114597']

"Reasonable doubt ain't good enough for universal truth."

There's never been a universal truth, Steve. It's been a gradual progression or a "changing of previously accepted ideas" based on new findings, always. Or it may be that we've done it all before and lost it. But I don't believe there will ever be a universal truth as such, not in the physical world anyway.

 "The word physical doesn't just mean made of matter."

Could you explain what you mean by that ?

[/quote]

"There are universal truths such as gravity is always pulling you down."

Or is it that the planet is pushing us up or forward through space  ? What about on planets where there is hardly any gravity ?

"Playing with fire will eventually burn you"

Not necessarily.

Everyone dies.

If you think about it, "everyone dies" is just as tenable as your assertion that mind equals the brain. Everyone's body dies, yes but their mind doesn't and what is a human being ? Mind or body ? Both to be ideal about it but you can't 'live' without a mind, can you.

"There are universal truths such as gravity is always pulling you down."

Or is it that the planet is pushing us up or forward through space  ? What about on planets where there is hardly any gravity ?

"Playing with fire will eventually burn you"

Not necessarily.

Everyone dies.

If you think about it, "everyone dies" is just as tenable as your assertion that mind equals the brain. Everyone's body dies, yes but their mind doesn't and what is a human being ? Mind or body ? Both to be ideal about it but you can't 'live' without a mind, can you.
[/quote]

Idea the mind does not die is a personal truth. It would not be living without a mind.

"There are universal truths such as gravity is always pulling you down."

Or is it that the planet is pushing us up or forward through space  ? What about on planets where there is hardly any gravity ?

"Playing with fire will eventually burn you"

Not necessarily.

Everyone dies.

If you think about it, "everyone dies" is just as tenable as your assertion that mind equals the brain. Everyone's body dies, yes but their mind doesn't and what is a human being ? Mind or body ? Both to be ideal about it but you can't 'live' without a mind, can you.

"Idea the mind does not die is a personal truth."  

According to the group of doctors empirically studying the question (And  you profess to like the word empirical-> =observation and experimentation) the mind, that thing which makes us into who we are, the psyche, the self, the soul..does NOT become annihilated just because we have gone through the process of death.  

Are you prepared to accept what they say and if not, why not ?

"Idea the mind does not die is a personal truth."  

According to the group of doctors empirically studying the question (And  you profess to like the word empirical-> =observation and experimentation) the mind, that thing which makes us into who we are, the psyche, the self, the soul..does NOT become annihilated just because we have gone through the process of death.  

Are you prepared to accept what they say and if not, why not ?

Any single group of anyone does not determine what is a universal truth. Truth is found by repeated testing and verification. To this very day Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is tested and verified not by anyone group but by many groups for over 100 years. That's how truth is found.

Any single group of anyone does not determine what is a universal truth. Truth is found by repeated testing and verification. To this very day Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is tested and verified not by anyone group but by many groups for over 100 years. That's how truth is found.

"Any single group of anyone does not determine what is a universal truth."

The Aware group has the backing of even the sceptical psychologists, Steve (provided they do it right) And it's not the first , nor will it be the last. 6 previous prospective studies and dozens of retrospective ones have all found the same patterns and more or less come to the same (tentative) "conclusions." all around the world. The Aware study is the definitive one that will or should change the text books if it's done right (to repeat) and it produces the target hits. 

From Gerry Woerlee's website :

A landmark study (Aware)

The title, the numbers of participating institutions and physicians, the methodology, as well as the analysis, reveal this to be a landmark study requiring enormous persistence and effort on the part of Sam Parnia. This wonderful study is a credit to Sam Parnia, his co-workers, and the participating institutions. It finally provides data about the possibility, and nature of consciousness during cardiac arrest and massage in an independent multinational study.

Now the point here is that Gerry doesn't agree with the conclusions of Parnia and his team but he has to recognise that the study is a very sound one.

It makes your position look a bit cynical rather than open minded, to me, Steve.