Robert Lea on ghosts and the laws of physics

"Any single group of anyone does not determine what is a universal truth."

The Aware group has the backing of even the sceptical psychologists, Steve (provided they do it right) And it's not the first , nor will it be the last. 6 previous prospective studies and dozens of retrospective ones have all found the same patterns and more or less come to the same (tentative) "conclusions." all around the world. The Aware study is the definitive one that will or should change the text books if it's done right (to repeat) and it produces the target hits. 

From Gerry Woerlee's website :

A landmark study (Aware)

The title, the numbers of participating institutions and physicians, the methodology, as well as the analysis, reveal this to be a landmark study requiring enormous persistence and effort on the part of Sam Parnia. This wonderful study is a credit to Sam Parnia, his co-workers, and the participating institutions. It finally provides data about the possibility, and nature of consciousness during cardiac arrest and massage in an independent multinational study.

Now the point here is that Gerry doesn't agree with the conclusions of Parnia and his team but he has to recognise that the study is a very sound one.

It makes your position look a bit cynical rather than open minded, to me, Steve.

We'll see what they find but they've nothing to show yet. It's a bit premature to say they've found a universal truth.

We'll see what they find but they've nothing to show yet. It's a bit premature to say they've found a universal truth.

On the contrary, the first phase of Aware revealed that 40% of patients who had gone through the process of death, had some kind of awareness beyond the point at which it was previously thought that experience ceases, or should cease. 

Secondly, the lead investigator of the study has told us (presumably based on the data gathered) that the "mind" continues to
exist in the first period after death although for how long it's too early to say.

I don't think that can be regarded as "nothing."

On the contrary, the first phase of Aware revealed that 40% of patients who had gone through the process of death, had some kind of awareness beyond the point at which it was previously thought that experience ceases, or should cease. 

Secondly, the lead investigator of the study has told us (presumably based on the data gathered) that the "mind" continues to
exist in the first period after death although for how long it's too early to say.

I don't think that can be regarded as "nothing."

We'll see.

We'll see.

I'm okay with that. Thanks.

I don't say that's a naive question, but he's doing more than asking questions - he's saying that because ghosts can move they must be physical themselves, and therefore they can't walk through walls! It's just silly.

I am fairly sceptical about post mortem survival myself, but obviously the weak point of the Brian Cox argument and this one is that if ghosts are non-material, then you don't need any new physical particles, you just need a mechanism for consciousness to interact with matter - just as you do for psychokinenesis. And why should that have been found by the Large Hadron Collider, as they didn't do any psychokinesis experiments, as far as I know? (Unless the whole thing is a huge psychokinesis experiment, in which the physicists are willing the apparatus to obtain the results they're expecting!)

Anyway, ghosts have generally been believed to be non-material, and in particular it's commonplace to hear stories of them walking either above or below the present ground level. This has been the case at least since antiquity. The second-century apocryphal letter known as the Epistula Apostolorum says, in one version "The foot of a ghost or a demon does not join to the ground" (or in another, "a ghost or demon leaves no print on the ground"):
https://books.google.com/books?id=TDW0Pe...&lpg=PA256

Thanks for the ghost story, by the way.

Playing devil's advocate.

From the article:

"Energy is a property of matter" This is true. Visible light is potential energy it becomes energy only if it interacts with matter."

  For example: using a magifying glass to burn wood or to propel a solar sail using sunlight. The photon is the force carrier

Chris: he's saying that because ghosts can move they must be physical themselves, and therefore they can't walk through walls!

That would be true. Walking is chemical energy turned into mechanical energy which only happens with matter and generally speaking matter can't penetrate matter.

Chris: And why should that have been found by the Large Hadron Collider, as they didn't do any psychokinesis experiments, as far as I know? (Unless the whole thing is a huge psychokinesis experiment, in which the physicists are willing the apparatus to obtain the results they're expecting!)

All *forces are mediated by particles as should the telekinetic force be too. That's basic physics. So the telekinetic force must be mediated by a particle. If any of the newly discovered particles which the LHC has discovered does mediate the telekinetic force then that would indicate ghosts are made of some kind of material and can't walk through walls (There are exceptions though. The **neutrino can as can the muon, but the muon has a very short lifetime. ) and therefore just like the telekinetic force are measurable. But no arbitrary particles have been discovered which are absolutely not predicted by the Standard Model. There are hints of physics that go beyond The Standard model, but nothing has been confirmed. But suppose a ghost is composed of some particle that can penetrate matter? Well that presents another three problems because this particle would have to be a particle beyond the energy capabilities of our present particle accelerators and there would have to a binding force to hold a clump of these particles together. Also how would a ghost generate or gather this particle in the first place? The author of the article asked questions most ordinary people never consider. They just go with ghost are real period.

* It's assumed gravity is mediated by the graviton.

** the neutrino is the only particle I've ever heard of that is stable and able to pass through matter almost unimpeded.

All *forces are mediated by particles as should the telekinetic force be too. That's basic physics.

* It's assumed gravity is mediated by the graviton.

And have these gravitons been detected by the Large Hadron Collider?

And have these gravitons been detected by the Large Hadron Collider?

Not yet if ever because gravitons interact with matter only weakly.

Not yet if ever because gravitons interact with matter only weakly.

Sorry - I was being a bit mischievous, because I had looked up the answer to that question.

But - assuming that gravity is indeed mediated by gravitons as you say - doesn't the answer make an enormous hole in Brian Cox's argument? If the LHC hasn't been able to detect the particles that mediate gravity, how can the absence of evidence from the LHC be used to rule out an unknown interaction between consciousness and matter?