Reading “Proof of Spiritual Phenomena”

I wonder what he thought when he found out.

That's a quite beautiful though David.  Thanks for that.  Sorta made my day!

Not only people in cardiac arrest report NDEs. Other stressful events triggers the experiences with the same frequency. For example: Incidence of near-death experiences in patients surviving a prolonged critical illness and their long-term impact: a prospective observational study | Critical Care | Full Text (biomedcentral.com)

=> it has nothing to do with 'being' dead.

That's not evidence though SBU.  You're pointing out a correlation to another circumstance; not causation.  Right?

I get it, its tough to process.  But what I don't get is being absolutely sure that the physicalist explanation is airtight.  I just isn't.  Full stop.  (At least for me.)

Not only people in cardiac arrest report NDEs. Other stressful events triggers the experiences with the same frequency. For example: Incidence of near-death experiences in patients surviving a prolonged critical illness and their long-term impact: a prospective observational study | Critical Care | Full Text (biomedcentral.com)

=> it has nothing to do with 'being' dead.

You don't need to tell me that, I already know. The irony is that you don't know or realise that it's because of closed minded psuedo sceptics and their appalling behaviour that the cardiac arrest studies were originally initiated. The idea was to tighten the evidence, get better data, show that people who were dead actually do have experiences to report, because sceptics said they wouldn't. 

But naturally, the sceptics just moved the goal posts and refused to accept the results. As to you stating that the NDE has nothing to do with being dead, that is just utter bollocks. 

50 % of the people in the prospective studies who had memories of their period of cardiac arrest (death) reported the clear impression that they were dead.  If this was my forum I'd be tempted to run you right off here, blasting at your feet with my colt 45 until you danced right over the horizon. Bang, bang !!

But because I quite like you, I'll put my gun back in my holster. (there)

I believe the experiences occur after restoration of spontaneous circulation and before the patients emerge from coma. It's known that other life threatning events under heavy stress can induce NDE like experiences and I see quirkybrainmeat has justed posted a link to a new prospective study investigating NDE experiences that score equally high on the Greyson scale but involving no cardiac arrests.

It really helps to see this phenomenon using a non-materialist hypothesis. I.e. that the consciousness can split from the body in various extreme circumstances, and that in that form awareness expands.

If you want to explore the situation when the body is basically dead, you choose the subset of data that relates to cardiac arrest, otherwise, you can look at all the data - which does indeed extend beyond cardiac arrest.

Nobody claimed that NDE's were limited to people going into cardiac arrest, but that those that do get an NDE out of a cardiac arrest, are particularly hard to explain materialistically.

David

I believe the experiences occur after restoration of spontaneous circulation and before the patients emerge from coma. It's known that other life threatning events under heavy stress can induce NDE like experiences and I see quirkybrainmeat has justed posted a link to a new prospective study investigating NDE experiences that score equally high on the Greyson scale but involving no cardiac arrests.

You have to be careful using the Greyson scale, it has massive limitations, and is often (mis)used to make incorrect conclusions. But you're right, we can get NDE-like phenomena in all sorts of circumstances other than those where people are dying. Thats a big part of trying to make sense of these experiences. I also agree that recalled cardiac arrest Near death experients were not dead, but they were dying, and would die without intervention.

Where I do have a problem is with your idea that such cardiac arrest NDE's, NDE/OBE's are only laid down as an experience after successful resuscitation. It's possible that some experiences are laid down during this post resuscitation period, because as you correctly point out, NDE-like experiences occur in all sorts of different circumstances, and are only recalled by the living. But when you read many NDE/OBE cardiac arrest survival stories, it's clear these experiences also seem to be laid down both pre-resuscitation, and during resuscitation, as those are the periods from which the visual information often appears to have been recalled from by these experients.

That's not evidence though SBU.  You're pointing out a correlation to another circumstance; not causation.  Right?

I get it, its tough to process.  But what I don't get is being absolutely sure that the physicalist explanation is airtight.  I just isn't.  Full stop.  (At least for me.)

Yes I agree regarding correlation vs causation. I actually feel 100% confident that any reductionist approach to explain consciousness is going to fail. I find eliminativ materialism to be such nonsense that it really puzzles me anyone seriously can hold that philosophical outlook. And I certainly don’t rule out the possibility of survival. I just haven’t personally found anything yet that really convinces me.


By the way, Mona Sobhani’s book gets better (past page 50). She doesn’t present any new psi research this forum isn’t already familar with. But she brings in the perspective of fellow scientists from the academia world. It strengthens the impression that many highly educated people privately holds sceptism against the official and predominant materialist position.

Her background makes it a refreshing read for me, bit it’s not a must read for people already deep into the subject.