People that sit on the both side what do you think about the propnet and skeptic?

Chris, you’re wasting your time.

Chris, you’re wasting your time.

Nobody is doing nothing to make me change my mind on Radin, Chris just told me that I don't know how the spoon bent, i pointed out that it doesn't matter as nobody knows how a magician trick works outside of dedicated magicians. It still remains something unusable in any scientific environement, and not an evidence unless replicated in controlled conditions.

I really don't get it, if macro PK is real why don't they get some spoon benders to bend them in a lab? With items provided by the researchers of course and a magician on team to look out for fraud (maybe ask Randi himself, so he can't tell that there were problems with the experiment afterwards). It's rather low cost and could prove PK exists. I think they don't attempt this experiment because they know it woudl fail badly.

Yes, these magicians spoons didn't look any different from a normal spoon.

My opinion is that it's clearly a trick of some kind, othrwise some researcher would have replicated the effect in controlled conditions. I mean, get a magician to avoid frauds, give them a silver spoon and see if they can bend it. The result would be the same as for the "mini gellers" in my opinion, so finding out fraud.

Yes, these magicians spoons didn't look any different from a normal spoon. There are any number of special material recipes that can be used to create all manner of effects, including memory metals with very small temperature windows.

That's not really what happened with Radin's spoon, though, is it? After five minutes it suddenly felt soft for a short time and he decided to bend it in a certain way, and then it became hard again.

It would be interesting to know how these magicians' spoons behaved. But I'd find it a bit surprising if they were allowed to put "WM A ROGERS SILVER OVERLAID ONEIDA LTD" on them and copy an Oneida design.

Why not just do it with a modern stainless steel spoon Radin brought along himself... why one provided by the act?



http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/891

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072LVD6N4/ref...B0016C1WQC

There are all sorts of clever ways to make this work...

I never got very far with magic tricks, but I used to enjoy giving people an unpeeled banana, getting them to peel it, only to find it had already been chopped into slices inside... or the smoke I could create from my fingers... Lol

Exactly, you can just fake nearly everything with magic tricks. I was fond of the Dynamo show, he managed to do amazing things.

As for PK spoon bending, probably they need silver as it can be bent more easily. If it exists (and I'm pretty sure it doesn't) you need a metal not so tough. Give them a silver spoon in a lab, and watch if they can do it. It's an experiment so simple that if nobody managed to do it yet then I'd say that the researchers are scared to try or that the claimants refuse to do it because they would be exposed as fakes.

https://www.cooksongold.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7452

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/metal-...spoon.html

I'm afraid I find those links a bit cryptic. Is the suggestion that if the spoon had been annealed it would behave as Radin described? Or is the assumption that he was wrong about the spoon only becoming soft five minutes into the procedure?

I think there's a danger of losing sight of the problem here.

What is the real subject we are trying to find out about? The answer is PSI phenomena in general. In focussing deeply on very specific instances there is no way to establish whether or not psi phenomena are real. In that respect we can expend huge amounts of intellectual effort while directing our attention at something else. A bit like setting up a telescope to study the surface of the moon, but somehow missing and studying the starry background instead.

My other thought is on the nature of these phenomena. My question isn't on whether or not anything exists, but on how it manifests itself. We like to live in a safe, stable world where things are highly regular and predictable. But is there anything to suggest that psi phenomena are highly regular and predictable? Perhaps a little. But there is a lot more to suggest that, at least at our current levels of understanding, many of these things just don't conform to our expectations. So - rather than simply declaring that therefore they don't exist, there is an opportunity to actually expand our knowledge, by acknowledging that perhaps our simplistic models, our ideas about the way the world should behave, the way it must behave, are not adequate to the task.

I came across an example yesterday. See the post here:
http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/ma...ost-130899

I guess my point is, to be cautious in our expectations. The world may surprise us by working entirely differently to the way we think it ought to.