Parnia to the "dark side"?

40 Replies, 2376 Views

It looks like Dr. Sam Parnia has gone over to the "dark side" so to speak, in his latest remarks regarding his AWARE II most significant results, where under verified clinical conditions a certain small percentage of flatlined cardiac arrest patients were found to later report transcendental and even life-transforming experiences after temporarily being in a verified "death" state.

Parnia, ignoring reams of evidence to the contrary,  has apparently decided to suggest an ingenious physicalist neurological attempted explanation for the experiences, which inherently endorses materialist neuroscience's mantra that mind is essentially what the physical brain does on an ultimately physical level in its neural structures.

https://www.livescience.com/health/death...tudy-shows

Quote:"He (Dr. Parnia) and his colleagues have developed a working hypothesis to explain their findings. Normally, the brain has "braking systems" in place that filter most elements of brain function out of our experience of consciousness. This enables people to efficiently operate in the world, because under regular circumstances, "you couldn't function with access to your whole brain’s activity being in the realm of consciousness," he says.

In the dying brain, however, the researchers hypothesize that the braking system is removed. Parts that are normally dormant become active, and the dying person gains access to their entire consciousness — "all your thoughts, all your memories, everything that's been stored before," Parnia says. "We don't know the evolutionary benefit of this, but it seems to prepare people for their transition from life into death."

The findings also raise questions about the brain’s resiliency to oxygen deprivation. It could be, Parnia says, that some people who have conventionally been thought to be beyond the point of saving could in fact be revived. "The traditional thinking among doctors is that the brain, once deprived of oxygen for five to 10 minutes, dies," he says. "We were able to show that the brain is quite robust in terms of its ability to resist oxygen deprivation for prolonged periods of time, which opens up new pathways for finding treatments for brain damage in the future."

Parnia, unexpectedly, like all the orthodox materialist neuroscience figures, conveniently ignores the large body of empirical evidence uncovered by independent investigators for the actual separation of the human spirit from the body during some deep veridical NDEs, during which many physically unaccountable correct observations of the environment are made. He also apparently ignores the considerable problems for his theory in explaining how there can be intense sophisticated and complex (therefore energy intensive) neural processing in some small non-cerebral deep brain structure(s), all while brain blood flow (and therefore oxygen intake and carbon dioxide outflow) is being drastically limited by the cardiac arrest.

And Parnia's speculations include the assumption that there is of course some evolutionary explanation, assuming of course Darwinian RM+NS, ignoring the obvious absurdity of this speculation on several levels.
(This post was last modified: 2023-09-22, 04:05 PM by nbtruthman. Edited 1 time in total.)
[-] The following 4 users Like nbtruthman's post:
  • Valmar, Ninshub, Raimo, Typoz
(2023-09-22, 03:54 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: In the dying brain, however, the researchers hypothesize that the braking system is removed. Parts that are normally dormant become active, and the dying person gains access to their entire consciousness — "all your thoughts, all your memories, everything that's been stored before," Parnia says. "We don't know the evolutionary benefit of this, but it seems to prepare people for their transition from life into death."

I can't imagine why Sam Parnia has put out this idea. I mean the very idea that there would be an evolutionary value in people's brains being prepared for death is preposterous. How is it supposed to work, when prepared or unprepared the owner of the brain will die without giving birth to offspring!

I do wonder if he is being mischievous - goading others into debating this concept until they realise how vacuous it is!

David
[-] The following 6 users Like David001's post:
  • Valmar, nbtruthman, Obiwan, Raimo, Typoz, Larry
The last few entries of the Aware of Aware blog are about this. Worth a look.
[-] The following 6 users Like Will's post:
  • Sciborg_S_Patel, nbtruthman, Ninshub, Larry, Raimo, Typoz
(2023-09-22, 05:42 PM)Will Wrote: The last few entries of the Aware of Aware blog are about this. Worth a look.

From  this blog:

Quote:"This latest report of persistent brain waves after cardiac arrest has been blown out of proportion by the media. In fact, his team did not show any association between these brain waves and conscious activity,” said Dr. Bruce Greyson, Carlson Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia School of Medicine in Charlottesville.
“That is, those patients who had near-death experiences did not show the reported brain waves, and those who did show the reported brain waves did not report near-death experiences,” Greyson told CNN via email."

Comment: Thus, aside from all the empirical evidence contrary to the physicalist neurological explanation, the researchers (primarily Parnia) are guilty of egregious unscientific conflation to infer a conclusion that these transcendental memories were a result of the observed brain patterns, since there was no evidence that the brain patterns corresponded to the experiences - in fact, the brain patterns happened in other patients (ones who reported no NDEs) and with probably other causes (like "noise in the machine").

As the blogger mentions, there is something confusing and even suspicious about this, because Parnia has made many statements of a dualist sort of spiritual/material explanation in interviews and in books. Why the sudden change? The blogger claims Parnia somehow still has the dualist view, but offers no quotes or other evidence.
(This post was last modified: 2023-09-22, 07:24 PM by nbtruthman. Edited 3 times in total.)
[-] The following 3 users Like nbtruthman's post:
  • Ninshub, Valmar, Raimo
Well, at least in the context of this clip, Parnia's findings are discussed in terms of improving resuscitation, which is essentially his day job as I understand it. And I believe Parnia's discussed filter models of consciousness favorably in public not even a full year ago, including in the AWARE paper published this year, so whatever his latest research points to empirically, I wouldn't read a U-turn into one set of comments.
[-] The following 5 users Like Will's post:
  • Valmar, Sciborg_S_Patel, Raimo, Typoz, Ninshub
Quote:... the dying person gains access to their entire consciousness — "all your thoughts, all your memories, everything that's been stored before," Parnia says.

So those thoughts and memories contain all the details of a transcendent environment including spiritual beings, some who look human, others who look like beings of light? Beings who communicate by thought? Beings who look, sound and behave like deceased relatives, beings who provide verifiable information unknown to the experiencer? How were these entirely new and undreamed-of details stored? Moreover, details which are consistent with countless other accounts from people going through similar experiences. I guess all those similarities and consistencies are - what - coincidences, right? 

I've long worried that Parnia was overly careful about upsetting his materialist peers in his desperation to retain his reputation as a serious researcher. Sadly, investigating NDEs does not enhance one's reputation among those people. Thank goodness for Greyson and his ilk.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
[-] The following 5 users Like Kamarling's post:
  • Valmar, nbtruthman, Raimo, Typoz, David001
I'm trying to avoid looking at what journalists or the media say, since they often distort and misrepresent things - whether knowingly or unknowingly isn't the issue. Instead I prefer to look directly at the source material from Parnia and his team.

There were a couple of videos published recently, I've looked at the youtube versions though it's the same material and source as on other platforms.

Having looked at the first video, it suggested to see the study paper for more details.
Parnia Lab at NYU Langone Health Wrote:To learn more, head over to Resuscitation Journal to read the full AWARE-II study publication: https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/art...2/fulltext
There, one thing I'd like to mention is the long list of contributing authors. Parnia's name is first, but there is a long list totalling thirty-seven individuals. In reading the paper, presumably some members contributed particular sections but the discussion or conclusion one assumes is a group effort.

I'll quote a excerpt from that paper:
AWARE II Paper Wrote:Recent reports of a surge of gamma and other physiological electrical activity (ordinarily seen with lucid consciousness) during and after cardiac standstill and death, led to speculation that biomarker(s) of lucidity at death may exist, which our findings support. Taken together, these studies and ours provide a novel understanding of how lucid experiences in relation to cardiac standstill/death may arise. Ischemic depolarization may initiate brain disinhibition - leading to activation of dormant pathways - observed as transient electrocortical biomarkers of lucidity. Although of unknown evolutionary benefit, instead of being hallucinatory, illusory or delusional, this appears to facilitate lucid understanding of new dimensions of reality – including people’s deeper consciousness - all memories, thoughts, intentions and actions towards others from a moral and ethical perspective. The mechanism of consciousness and its relationship with brain resuscitation and function remain undiscovered. “Bottom-up” or “top-down” mechanisms are proposed for the emergence of consciousness. The former considers consciousness as an epiphenomenon from brain activities; the latter, as a separate undiscovered entity not produced by understood brain mechanisms, which can independently modulate brain activity. The identification of potential electrocortical biomarkers of consciousness doesn’t resolve this conundrum, as an association doesn’t imply causation. However, the paradoxical finding of lucidity and heightened reality when brain function is severely disordered, or has ceased raises the need to consider alternatives to the epiphenomenon theory.

certain parts I will highlight here:
  • instead of being hallucinatory, illusory or delusional, this appears to facilitate lucid understanding of new dimensions of reality
  • The mechanism of consciousness and its relationship with brain resuscitation and function remain undiscovered.
Also on the question of consciousness as an epiphenomenon or as a separate undiscovered entity,
AWARE II Paper Wrote:The identification of potential electrocortical biomarkers of consciousness doesn’t resolve this conundrum, as an association doesn’t imply causation. However, the paradoxical finding of lucidity and heightened reality when brain function is severely disordered, or has ceased raises the need to consider alternatives to the epiphenomenon theory.
(This post was last modified: 2023-09-23, 10:20 AM by Typoz. Edited 1 time in total.)
[-] The following 4 users Like Typoz's post:
  • Valmar, Sciborg_S_Patel, Ninshub, Raimo
The first video,

Brain Disinhibition and Recalled Experiences of Death

Notably it ends with the statement,
Quote:These hyper-conscious Lucid recalled experiences are not considered hallucinations but a new experience that reveals itself with death.

While no one knows the evolutionary purpose of this phenomenon,
its occurrence suggests our Consciousness and selfhood is not annihilated when we cross into the great beyond.

That closing line is exactly the same as Parnia has been saying for years, "we are not annihilated at death". No change there.

The second video of Dr Sam Parnia himself,
Dr. Sam Parnia on the AWARE-II Study: Consciousness and Awareness during Cardiac Arrest

One thing which I at first misread/misheard was the part where there is talk of the idea of disinhibition. Initially I misunderstood and thought they were saying it gives access to the entire brain. My mistake, he says it gives access to a person's entire consciousness. What he says is interesting though it is mostly about his day job as a doctor rather than on consciousness alone.

Though when he says "the normal braking systems are removed", that sounds very much like Dr Pim Van Lommel talking about the filter theory. Different words, same concept in practical terms.

Much of this reminds me of Dr Raymond Moody who started writing and talking about Near-Death Experiences in the 1970s but remained on the fence for decades as to whether he thought we survived beyond death. Only a few short years ago has Moody come down on one side and stated publicly that we do survive death and that that is supported by the evidence.
(This post was last modified: 2023-09-23, 10:27 AM by Typoz. Edited 1 time in total.)
[-] The following 4 users Like Typoz's post:
  • Valmar, Sciborg_S_Patel, Ninshub, Raimo
(2023-09-23, 10:17 AM)Typoz Wrote: The first video,

Brain Disinhibition and Recalled Experiences of Death
Notably it ends with the statement,

That closing line is exactly the same as Parnia has been saying for years, "we are not annihilated at death". No change there.

The second video of Dr Sam Parnia himself,
Dr. Sam Parnia on the AWARE-II Study: Consciousness and Awareness during Cardiac Arrest
One thing which I at first misread/misheard was the part where there is talk of the idea of disinhibition. Initially I misunderstood and thought they were saying it gives access to the entire brain. My mistake, he says it gives access to a person's entire consciousness. What he says is interesting though it is mostly about his day job as a doctor rather than on consciousness alone.

Though when he says "the normal braking systems are removed", that sounds very much like Dr Pim Van Lommel talking about the filter theory. Different words, same concept in practical terms.

Much of this reminds me of Dr Raymond Moody who started writing and talking about Near-Death Experiences in the 1970s but remained on the fence for decades as to whether he thought we survived beyond death. Only a few short years ago has Moody come down on one side and stated publicly that we do survive death and that that is supported by the evidence.

The Aware Ii strongly fuels the hypothesis that NDEs are due to the restoration of blood circulation in the brain during CPR. I believe correlations between neural activity during resusication and NDEs will eventually be proven. I also believe that’s why we now see a change in stance from one of the leading experts in the field.
(2023-09-23, 05:24 PM)sbu Wrote: The Aware Ii strongly fuels the hypothesis that NDEs are due to the restoration of blood circulation in the brain during CPR. I believe correlations between neural activity during resusication and NDEs will eventually be proven. I also believe that’s why we now see a change in stance from one of the leading experts in the field.

Mod here.

This kind of post does not belong in this section of the forum. Please see rule 7.

  • View a Printable Version
Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)