Opposing Hell

I usually say as little as possible on topics such as this. On the one hand I think religion is valuable, and would not want to see a world without it. On the other, I stay as far away as possible from any religious doctrine or dogma. It is, if I might say so without causing offence, repellent to me. I've come to understand than my past-life experiences pretty much inoculated me against religion, so that on my first encounter with Church teaching at a very young age in this life, my body had a strong physical reaction, one which puzzled me for many decades.

Between the ages of 5 and 11 I attended a church school where as well as the daily assembly in the morning, the culture of the school was steeped in CofE teaching. Most of it was like water off a duck's back to me, it had no particular impact or interest for me. But there was one small thing which I recall and found of value.

Our music teacher who played piano also taught us religion, and there was one day when she explained how the musical dynamics of the way she banged away on the piano for all she was worth at one moment, and tinkled softly on the keys the next, fitted in with the words of the hymn we were singing. And how the words related to real-life situations we might one day encounter.

Breathe through the heats of our desire
thy coolness and thy balm;
let sense be dumb, let flesh retire;
speak through the earthquake, wind and fire,
O still small voice of calm!
O still small voice of calm!

That was I think the only positive thing I took away from the whole of that six years of teaching. Oh, and that I was thrown out of church by that same teacher for enjoying myself too much!

I might be mistaken, but I think Brian's focus was specifically on refuting the idea of Hell by reference to passages in the Bible?

We might want to split the conversation into two threads?

I might be mistaken, but I think Brian's focus was specifically on refuting the idea of Hell by reference to passages in the Bible?

We might want to split the conversation into two threads?

Actually, it was not my intent to either agree or disagree with Brian but merely to add my thoughts on the subject of sin, punishment and hell. I also used what I remember from my childhood New Testament studies to point out that I did not get the impression that sin, punishment and hell were the focus of the teachings of Jesus either.

Actually, it was not my intent to either agree or disagree with Brian but merely to add my thoughts on the subject of sin, punishment and hell. I also used what I remember from my childhood New Testament studies to point out that I did not get the impression that sin, punishment and hell were the focus of the teachings of Jesus either.

Ah I wasn't blaming anyone I just thought it might be good to have a thread for more general discussion about Christianity and a specific thread about whether the Bible actually supports the idea of Hell.

[Laird]

Happy to split the thread if that's Brian's preference, or simply if he doesn't mind us adopting Sci's suggestion.

I might be mistaken, but I think Brian's focus was specifically on refuting the idea of Hell by reference to passages in the Bible?

We might want to split the conversation into two threads?

I agree. Though whether we need additional threads, or merely focus on getting this one back to Brian's original intention might be good too.

(apologies for my own wander sideways above. In my defence, perhaps the quoted words have some meaning, should one find oneself in a hell).

Ah I wasn't blaming anyone I just thought it might be good to have a thread for more general discussion about Christianity and a specific thread about whether the Bible actually supports the idea of Hell.

I'm not personally fond of the idea of a general discussion on Christianity because I know I will get caught up in frustrating debates.   If , however, others want to discuss that then it is not for me to prevent it.  If that does happen, then I will avoid the forum until my PDF is complete, then I will post it here (or a link) and quit with no hard feelings.

I'm not personally fond of the idea of a general discussion on Christianity because I know I will get caught up in frustrating debates.   If , however, others want to discuss that then it is not for me to prevent it.  If that does happen, then I will avoid the forum until my PDF is complete, then I will post it here (or a link) and quit with no hard feelings.

Clearly, quitting the forum is an option you may wish to take rather than exposure to a debate you don't want to have. There are things that I don't want to debate on this forum - things like conspiracy theories or right-wing politics - but people go ahead and discuss them anyway. I guess it is the role of the moderators to decide when debate crosses the line to become hate-speech or deliberate disinformation.

However, this is a forum for discussion of matters of spirituality, religion, atheism and other philosophical positions which are surely of common interest. I certainly would avoid membership of this forum if I were so concerned that my worldview might be challenged in frustrating debates with sceptics. Indeed, there have been times when that frustration has caused me to take a prolonged break so I understand the sentiment. But, in the end, I feel that my worldview needs to be challenged if I am to have any confidence in those views.

I guess that I'm saying that your position on religion is as much a challenge to mine as is the sceptical position on spirituality and psi. That being so, it would be sad to lose your voice. Not much of a discussion forum when everyone is saying the same thing.

Clearly, quitting the forum is an option you may wish to take rather than exposure to a debate you don't want to have. There are things that I don't want to debate on this forum - things like conspiracy theories or right-wing politics - but people go ahead and discuss them anyway. I guess it is the role of the moderators to decide when debate crosses the line to become hate-speech or deliberate disinformation.

However, this is a forum for discussion of matters of spirituality, religion, atheism and other philosophical positions which are surely of common interest. I certainly would avoid membership of this forum if I were so concerned that my worldview might be challenged in frustrating debates with sceptics. Indeed, there have been times when that frustration has caused me to take a prolonged break so I understand the sentiment. But, in the end, I feel that my worldview needs to be challenged if I am to have any confidence in those views.

I guess that I'm saying that your position on religion is as much a challenge to mine as is the sceptical position on spirituality and psi. That being so, it would be sad to lose your voice. Not much of a discussion forum when everyone is saying the same thing.

In theory I agree with you but I am getting more and more tired mentally these days and just looking for calm from life's troubles.  I was never much good at debating anyway.

In theory I agree with you but I am getting more and more tired mentally these days and just looking for calm from life's troubles.  I was never much good at debating anyway.

I’m sure you’d agree that discussing things can be a good way to learn. I’m also sure you’ve considered the points I try to make below.

I can fully understand that arguments can be very tiring and that there are times we just don’t have the energy to participate, or perhaps we don’t like the degree of freedom moderators allow (either too much or too little), or we get frustrated that posters take the topic off track,  however trying to limit discussion, as long as it’s polite, is destined to failure IMO without drastic intervention by the site owner or moderator.

I suppose in some ways forums sometimes attempt it with topics that are for proponents and which forbid skeptics unless they’re genuinely joining in with the spirit of the thread, however I’d have thought  threads devoted to discussion of specifically Christian theology had better venues open to them. I’d suspect that the majority of active posters here were not particular pro organised religion. They’ll either ignore the discussion (which I think wouldn’t be a problem for you but which might make the content somewhat “thin”) or be triggered by it and make posts you’re not comfortable with.

If you don’t feel this is the right venue for the discussion you want then why not simply find another that’s more conducive to the discussion you want? I can’t see why that means you’d have to leave the forum but of course it’s a matter for you. There’s at least one forum that I visit periodically but I no longer post on because it’s impossible to have a balanced discussion on psi or related topics and people asking questions get shouted down by the resident skeptics/atheists. Nevertheless there’s occasionally an interesting discussion going on.

I doubt there are many, if any, open forums like this where we can simply demand or expect that posters stick to what we want to talk about in the way we want to talk about it. I suspect it is possible here however you’re probably going to have to spend a bit of time redirecting (or attempting to) the discussion patiently, and trying to put out brush fires that emerge between other posters on the thread that don’t contribute to the discussion you want. The people who have passionate views on a subject or related to it are the ones most likely to contribute I’d think. Understandably some of these passionate views may be somewhat provocative and not on-topic. 

If I want to restrict discussion on a topic or simply express my opinion without challenge, then I’d start a blog, or join a different forum where it’s likely people will be interested in exploring the topic.