No Wonder Science Is Hopelessly Stuck

Could this perceived inflexibility be caused by the lack of good objective evidence? What is stopping you or anyone that makes such a gripe from doing psi science research? This complaint comes up a lot and what none of you know is if solid evidence was found scientists would flock like flies to this type research if there was solid evidence, but that won't happen until then or maybe never. So get up off your duff and research.

The nature of the problem to be studied doesn't lend itself to the type of evidence they/you seek. That's just a fact. Can't you see that?

Now they/you can spend the rest of their/your professional lives whining about the fact that there is "no scientific evidence" to support the overwhelming testimony AND other evidence, or they/you can look deeper to find out what is going on.

Only a total moron would conclude that nothing is going on. I'll leave those people aside for now. They are a lost cause.

The ones that admit there is something there, should look at what methods they can use to figure it out, rather than demand that the phenomenon behave and give them "hard" evidence. The phenomenon will not change for them. They need to adjust their approach.

So one of Neil's arguments is that people see bright lights when they die because of operation table lights.
That's a pretty weak explanation, doesn't count all the people who die outside of a operating table.
Most people who die, I would guess, don't die on the table and some who die during surgeries are anesthetized and shouldn't be seeing anything. 
People die by drowning under completely black water or at night and see lights.

Absolutely. 

His comments are so weak I can only assume he knows this, which demonstrates his insincerity. 

Or he really doesn't see how flawed his thinking is: which proves his incompetence as a thinker.

Take your pick of the two.

Absolutely. 

His comments are so weak I can only assume he knows this, which demonstrates his insincerity. 

Or he really doesn't see how flawed his thinking is: which proves his incompetence as a thinker.

Take your pick of the two.

Not necessarily. I find him vague and unconvincing on every subject he talks about. Even when I know he’s correct. How he ever became prominent presenting science is a mystery to me. His delivery is appalling.

His delivery is appalling.

I hadn't seen him before, but he seemed more like a stand-up comedian than a scientist.

Not necessarily. I find him vague and unconvincing on every subject he talks about. Even when I know he’s correct. How he ever became prominent presenting science is a mystery to me. His delivery is appalling.

Seems like his esteemed reputation is more a statement about the American public's (atrocious) level of scientific knowledge, and ability to think critically, than it is his.

[Edited by an admin to add references to sources]

It's not the scientific method that's broken really. It's the inflexibility of materialist scientists that is.

He's just saying the things they all say. They've never read the literature, though. They believe they don't need to (Sean Carroll) because there can't be evidence for something that's impossible (circular reasoning).

Dr. Sean Carroll: You know, life is short. I could spend my entire life reading studies on near-death experiences and carefully understanding why they’re flawed, and I have no interest in that. 

The problem is the experiences are consistently reported by ordinary reliable people and it's completely unscientific to dismiss something like that without taking a proper look. This is from 1979. What's the explanation.

From chapter 31, The story of David Bremner, UK, of The final frontier by Dr Richard Kent with Val Fotherby (note that the authors state explicitly: "This book has purposely been made available entirely free, and may be freely copied and distributed"):

One the requirements of offshore industries,
whether working or visiting oil platforms,
 was to undergo a very strict medical at least every three
years. I had undertaken one of these in March of
1979 and, whilst a moderate smoker and minimal
spirit drinker, I was pronounced as fit as a fiddle.

That year however, the workload became intense. By September I had not had a day off. I was
constantly travelling all over the country by plane, train and car, and also flying by helicopters to
offshore rigs. After a great deal of persuasion from my wife and secretary, I agreed to take a few days
off, well at least the weekend. I arranged to play golf on the Sunday morning with some friends. I did
enjoy a lazy Saturday morning but at lunch time there was a phone call from the Offshore Construction
Manager about a potential labour dispute. Because of the direct radiophone system we had with the
rigs, it was easier for me to go into the office to link up and monitor the situation, and issue advice and
instructions as and when required.

I did try to unwind that night. The following morning I was up about 05.45 a.m. to get ready to play an
early round of golf. Being a good husband  (  ) I decided to make Jean a cup of tea. As I poured out the hot
water I had a severe pain in my chest and numbness in my left arm. It eased a moment as I walked
through to the bedroom but then returned with a vengeance making breathing and moving difficult.
I lay down on top of the bed and felt myself sinking into it. Sounds started to recede as if I was going
deaf and I was only partly conscious. My doctor and friend arrived. He gave me an injection to make
me more comfortable and then arranged for my transfer to hospital. I was aware of very little of the
whole journey, or arriving at the hospital. What I experienced was something very different.

It must have been when my heart developed an abnormal rhythm that I found myself in a very bright,
white, and lighted place. There were no feelings of pain, discomfort or distress. In fact, it felt as if it
was where I wanted to be. I was experiencing a lovely feeling of peace when I became aware of
someone saying, ‘Come this way David’, and I was looking forward to going. 

 
I found myself looking down from the top corner of a room, floating just under the ceiling. Beneath me was a group of people gathered around a hospital trolley, talking together very excitedly, but they seemed to be far away.
Some were dressed in green, others in outdoor clothes, and one man in a dress shirt with fancy
patterned braces on.

On the wall, quite high up, I was conscious of an unusual clock. It was almost
opposite me and I thought it rather odd. The man in the fancy braces had something in both hands with
wires attached, and said something to the others, whilst placing these things on the person on the
trolley.

Immediately I felt intense pain return, and everything went black. Then as light returned I looked down
and suddenly realised that it was my body on the trolley. I was very angry at what was happening. I
wanted to stay where I was, because it was peaceful and pain free, and I was waiting for someone to
come and get me. But once more the man in the fancy braces bent over the trolley, and again I felt
intense pain. After that I felt nothing until I came round on the Tuesday.

When I came round there were Jean and Mike, the man whom I had been with on the Saturday sorting
out labour problems. He had actually done something almost unheard of in the oil industry, in that he
arranged to come onshore before his replacement arrived. This was because he felt he had to be at
the hospital with me.

 I started to tell them about the strange experience that I had experienced, but
could see by their faces that it was being accepted only with a large pinch of salt. Jean casually
remarked, ‘That’s God giving you another chance. You’ll definitely have to change and slow down in
future.’ Mike, being his usual cynical self, ignored what I was saying and supported what Jean had said
about slowing down.

At that point they had to leave because the consultant had arrived. I was asking for something to eat
and drink, as well as a wash and shave, because I knew I must look awful. Whilst he was checking me
over I quite calmly said to him that he had quite a taste in braces.

He stopped and asked, ‘What do you mean?’ I explained about what had taken place and he stood upright, somewhat astonished. He wanted to know if someone else had been speaking to me since I had come round, but the nurse
assured him that he was the first member of staff to speak to me since I had regained consciousness.

The consultant explained that he had been in the hospital on the previous Sunday when I was
brought in, and that I had experienced a cardiac arrest on the trolley. What I had called jump leads
was actually a defibrillator he had used to treat my cardiac arrest. And yes, he did have on a dress
shirt and fancy braces.

But how did I know that, as I was seriously ill with a cardiac arrest at the time.
The room I was in was not the one he was used to and when I mentioned the clock, he had not
noticed it. He did say that he had been told of a few similar cases in the past but was obviously puzzled by
my comments.

Later that evening he returned to say that he had been down to the room concerned and there was a
clock just as and where I had described it.

He's just saying the things they all say. They've never read the literature, though. They believe they
 don't need to (Sean Carroll) because there can't be evidence for something that's impossible (circular reasoning).

 Dr. Sean Carroll: You know, life is short. I could spend my entire life reading studies on near-death experiences and carefully understanding why they’re flawed, and I have no interest in that. 

The problem is the experiences are consistently reported by ordinary reliable people and it's completely unscientific to dismiss something like that without taking a proper look. This is from 1979. What's the explanation.

One the requirements of offshore industries,
whether working or visiting oil platforms,
 was to undergo a very strict medical at least every three
years. I had undertaken one of these in March of
1979 and, whilst a moderate smoker and minimal
spirit drinker, I was pronounced as fit as a fiddle.

That year however, the workload became intense. By September I had not had a day off. I was
constantly travelling all over the country by plane, train and car, and also flying by helicopters to
offshore rigs. After a great deal of persuasion from my wife and secretary, I agreed to take a few days
off, well at least the weekend. I arranged to play golf on the Sunday morning with some friends. I did
enjoy a lazy Saturday morning but at lunch time there was a phone call from the Offshore Construction
Manager about a potential labour dispute. Because of the direct radiophone system we had with the
rigs, it was easier for me to go into the office to link up and monitor the situation, and issue advice and
instructions as and when required.

I did try to unwind that night. The following morning I was up about 05.45 a.m. to get ready to play an
early round of golf. Being a good husband  (  ) I decided to make Jean a cup of tea. As I poured out the hot
water I had a severe pain in my chest and numbness in my left arm. It eased a moment as I walked
through to the bedroom but then returned with a vengeance making breathing and moving difficult.
I lay down on top of the bed and felt myself sinking into it. Sounds started to recede as if I was going
deaf and I was only partly conscious. My doctor and friend arrived. He gave me an injection to make
me more comfortable and then arranged for my transfer to hospital. I was aware of very little of the
whole journey, or arriving at the hospital. What I experienced was something very different.

It must have been when my heart developed an abnormal rhythm that I found myself in a very bright,
white, and lighted place. There were no feelings of pain, discomfort or distress. In fact, it felt as if it
was where I wanted to be. I was experiencing a lovely feeling of peace when I became aware of
someone saying, ‘Come this way David’, and I was looking forward to going. 

 
I found myself looking down from the top corner of a room, floating just under the ceiling. Beneath me was a group of people gathered around a hospital trolley, talking together very excitedly, but they seemed to be far away.
Some were dressed in green, others in outdoor clothes, and one man in a dress shirt with fancy
patterned braces on.

On the wall, quite high up, I was conscious of an unusual clock. It was almost
opposite me and I thought it rather odd. The man in the fancy braces had something in both hands with
wires attached, and said something to the others, whilst placing these things on the person on the
trolley.

Immediately I felt intense pain return, and everything went black. Then as light returned I looked down
and suddenly realised that it was my body on the trolley. I was very angry at what was happening. I
wanted to stay where I was, because it was peaceful and pain free, and I was waiting for someone to
come and get me. But once more the man in the fancy braces bent over the trolley, and again I felt
intense pain. After that I felt nothing until I came round on the Tuesday.

When I came round there were Jean and Mike, the man whom I had been with on the Saturday sorting
out labour problems. He had actually done something almost unheard of in the oil industry, in that he
arranged to come onshore before his replacement arrived. This was because he felt he had to be at
the hospital with me.

 I started to tell them about the strange experience that I had experienced, but
could see by their faces that it was being accepted only with a large pinch of salt. Jean casually
remarked, ‘That’s God giving you another chance. You’ll definitely have to change and slow down in
future.’ Mike, being his usual cynical self, ignored what I was saying and supported what Jean had said
about slowing down.

At that point they had to leave because the consultant had arrived. I was asking for something to eat
and drink, as well as a wash and shave, because I knew I must look awful. Whilst he was checking me
over I quite calmly said to him that he had quite a taste in braces.

He stopped and asked, ‘What do you mean?’ I explained about what had taken place and he stood upright, somewhat astonished. He wanted to know if someone else had been speaking to me since I had come round, but the nurse
assured him that he was the first member of staff to speak to me since I had regained consciousness.

The consultant explained that he had been in the hospital on the previous Sunday when I was
brought in, and that I had experienced a cardiac arrest on the trolley. What I had called jump leads
was actually a defibrillator he had used to treat my cardiac arrest. And yes, he did have on a dress
shirt and fancy braces.

But how did I know that, as I was seriously ill with a cardiac arrest at the time.
The room I was in was not the one he was used to and when I mentioned the clock, he had not
noticed it. He did say that he had been told of a few similar cases in the past but was obviously puzzled by
my comments.

Later that evening he returned to say that he had been down to the room concerned and there was a
clock just as and where I had described it.




.

Just a contemporaneous story. 

Oops, I mean he was oxygen deprived,,, 

or rather he was on hallucinogenic drugs. 

Yes, yes,, that's it. It was the drugs.

"Just a contemporaneous story. 

Oops, I mean he was oxygen deprived,,, 

or rather he was on hallucinogenic drugs. 

Yes, yes,, that's it. It was the drugs."

I can't see how the 'sceptics' can explain cases like the one above, jkmac. But they never express any embarrassment for hand waving them away. Either the story is made up ... or the bloke 'saw' his own resuscitation.

He couldn't possibly have seen the consultant because he was dead (otherwise there wouldn't have been need to shock his heart) The consultant's reaction (when the patient mentioned the braces) tells us that. And it can't be a confabulation to fill in memory blanks because he wouldn't have confabulated defibrillator paddles as jump leads  > he was clearly observing something which he wasn't familiar with and jump leads were what they appeared to be to him.

Of course the typical closed-minded debunker will claim that each veridical case out of no matter how many in total absolutely had to be due to conventional explanations including fraud, faulty memory, sensory cues or even coincidental hallucination, since in his fixed ideology the paranormal simply doesn't happen in the real world. This amounts to the mantra that accounts of experiences in real life (in particular ones of phenomena that mostly only happen spontaneously in real life and are not conducive to laboratory replication) no matter how strong with multiple credible witnesses, etc. are inherently unscientific and worthless as evidence - "the multiple of anecdote is still anecdote", unscientific. Of course this completely ignores the weight of the evidence in each case, but any resort is OK to save reductive materialism.

More shenanigans from Shermer

http://bigthink.com/big-think-books/mich...and-utopia

In their NDE accounts, experiencers will often emphasize that they were “dead” or “absolutely dead” or “clinically dead” in order to bias the interpretation toward the miraculous or supernatural. A Portland, Oregon Emergency Room doctor named Mark Crislip, however, reviewed the original EEG readings of a number of patients claimed by scientists as being flat-lined or “dead” and discovered that they weren’t dead at all. “What they showed was slowing, attenuation, and other changes, but only a minority of patients had a flat line, and it took longer than 10 seconds. The curious thing was that even a little blood flow in some patients was enough to keep EEG’s normal.”

 Crislip also analyzed the NDE study by Pim von Lommel and his colleagues published in the prestigious British medical journal Lancet, in which the authors “defined clinical death as a period of unconsciousness caused by insufficient blood supply to the brain because of inadequate blood circulation, breathing, or both. If, in this situation, CPR is not started within 5-10 min, irreparable damage is done to the brain and the patient will die.” As Crislip notes, however, most of these cardiac patients were given CPR, which by definition delivers oxygenated blood to the brain (that’s the whole point of doing it).

“By the definitions presented in the Lancet paper, nobody experienced clinical death,” Dr. Crislip concluded, adding that as a physician who has conducted CPR many times, “No doctor would ever declare a patient in the middle of a code 99 dead, much less brain dead. Having your heart stop for 2 to 10 minutes and being promptly resuscitated doesn’t make you ‘clinically dead’. It only means your heart isn’t beating and you may not be conscious.”