NDE study by Kondziella and Olsen

[Laird]

I still don't get what was wrong about the link I have posted. It seems that Alex, or whoever does the transcriptions for him, did not correct the mistake even after being noticed on the skeptico forum. Now I may be wrong, of course, but until I see some proof my idea remains.

The proof is in the very link you posted:

Update 2 days later: The errors referred to below have now been corrected.

and, in the comments:

Alex has corrected all the transcription errors that I gave him.

Comment by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos — February 21, 2012 @ 3:37 pm

The proof is in the very link you posted:


and, in the comments:

Sorry, I didn't really notice that.  I was then wrong,  I apologize.

Just to try to tie in the contribution of Alex and Skeptiko to the subject matter of this thread: Alex has, over the years, interviewed those who have reported an NDE (or similar), those who have been present (medical staff, family, etc.) and those who are critics of such reports. Yes, Alex is biased (aren't we all?) and his questions are sometimes amount to badgering but I can't think of anyone else who has managed to get so many from all sides to the microphone to explain their views.

As for criticism of Alex himself, I guess quite a few of us have had cause to do so. I was banned from Skeptiko for doing so which is why I was involved in the founding of this forum. But I hold no grudge or animosity towards him and fully appreciate that without him, this forum would not exist and we would not be having this discussion now. My criticism had nothing to do with any doubt about his integrity but everything to do with the direction he seemed to be taking Skeptiko. I, like several others here, have little interest in chasing conspiracy theories.

I think that if people come here with what might be termed a RationalWiki perspective and try to pass that off as evidential or considered, then some of us will get pretty pissed off because that is the kind of crap we fight against constantly.

It's been twelve years since he he made that error. Someone must have pointed it out to him already.

I wouldn't assume that off-hand, but even in that event, that doesn't mean a polite inquiry on this topic wouldn't be accepted.

That recent paper is behind a paywall, but this older one by the first author surveys the literature and explains some of the thinking:
https://www.uv.es/revispsi/articulos1.05/12-BERTOLO.pdf

Thanks. It's an interesting paper, and I'm afraid I don't understand it all. Blind patients drawing imagery was certainly intriguing, though it's still fuzzy to me how they would end up with any idea of what things look like to begin with. The paper doesn't mention epigenetics, but that's the first thing that came to my mind.

The difficulty of studying visual imagery resides on the little objectivity of evaluating its processes. The visual imagery experience, unlike memory, language and motor control studies, is personal and difficult to access (Kosslyn & Ochsner, 1994).

...I would think memory is even more personal and difficult for another person to access.

I wouldn't assume that off-hand, but even in that event, that doesn't mean a polite inquiry on this topic wouldn't be accepted.

I don't seem any scope for an inquiry on the specific question of whether those blind from birth experience REM sleep. Judging from the scientific literature, there doesn't seem to be any question about it.

There is also the broader question of whether Long is aware of the continuing work on whether the blind also experience visual imagery in their dreams, and if so whether he feels it affects his published arguments about NDEs. That might be interesting to follow up, but I don't think I'd better add it to my own list of things to do, which is quite long already.

Passing the word: Alex would be interested in interviewing Kondziella, if somebody could contact him

By the personal experience of my mother, and what the doctors told her after that, I'd say people can dream under common G.A.

The point is that REM sleep isn't common dreaming. It has a pattern on the EEG (correct me if I am wrong), and it should show up. Until now, Dr. Parnia and previous studies found no such pattern in patients during CA