NDE study by Kondziella and Olsen

The results of a new survey-based study on NDEs were presented at a scientific meeting in Norway last week. Here is the press release:
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/...062519.php
Here is a short draft paper:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/20...1.full.pdf

Prevalence of near-death experiences and REM sleep intrusion in 1034 adults from 35 countries
Daniel Kondziella, Markus Harboe Olsen
Abstract
Background: Near-death experiences have fascinated humans for centuries, but their origin and prevalence remain unknown.
Methods: Using an online crowdsourcing platform, we recruited 1034 lay people from 35 countries to investigate the prevalence of near-death experiences and self-reported REM sleep intrusion. Reports were validated using the Greyson Near-Death Experiences Scale (GNDES) with a score of ≥7 as cut-off point for identifying near-death experiences.
Results: Near-death experiences were reported by 106 of 1034 participants (10%; CI 95% 8.5-12%). REM sleep intrusion was more common in people with near-death experiences (n=50/106; 47%) than in people with experiences with 6 points or less on the GNDES (n=47/183; 26%) or in those without any such experience (n=107/744; 14%; p=<0.0001). Following multivariate regression analysis to adjust for age, gender, place of origin, employment status and perceived danger, this association remained highly significant; people with REM sleep intrusion were more likely to exhibit near-death experiences than those without REM sleep abnormalities (odds ratio 2.85; CI 95% 1.68-4.88; p=0.0001).
Conclusions: The prevalence of near-death experiences in the public is around 10%. While age, gender, place of residence, employment status and perceived threat do not seem to influence the prevalence of near-death experiences, there is a significant association with REM sleep intrusion. This finding is in line with the view that despite imminent threat to life, brain physiology must be well-preserved to perceive these fascinating experiences and store them as long-term memories.


And here is an article at LiveScience discussing the findings, including comments from Sam Parnia:
https://www.livescience.com/65838-near-d...sleep.html

The main finding is the confirmation of a statistical association between NDEs and REM sleep intrusion, which had been reported previously but which might have been the result of biased sampling. As discussed in the LiveScience article, this would be consistent with the theory that NDEs are a blend of the waking and dreaming states. Parnia criticised the study on several grounds - the inclusion of experiences of people who weren't near death, the possibility that an underlying medical cause of REM sleep intrusion might explain the statistical association, and the lack of an explanation for awareness during cardiac arrest.

Honestly, it doesn't seem like a good study. It isn't even perr-reviewed. Also, Parnia is taking the EEG readings of all his patients in aware 2, he would have noticed REM patterns on it I think

The results of a new survey-based study on NDEs were presented at a scientific meeting in Norway last week. Here is the press release:
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/...062519.php
Here is a short draft paper:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/20...1.full.pdf

The main finding is the confirmation of a statistical association between NDEs and REM sleep intrusion, which had been reported previously but which might have been the result of biased sampling. As discussed in the LiveScience article, this would be consistent with the theory that NDEs are a blend of the waking and dreaming states. Parnia criticised the study on several grounds - the inclusion of experiences of people who weren't near death, the possibility that an underlying medical cause of REM sleep intrusion might explain the statistical association, and the lack of an explanation for awareness during cardiac arrest.

And it doesn't explain (in fact is incompatible with) the many veridical elements in NDEs, accounts of "realer  than real" clarity of consciousness, and long-term dramatic spiritual personality changes. I don't think either waking state consciousness or dreaming are known to produce these things, which are stubbornly incompatible with the materialist paradigm the study authors appear to be trying to uphold re. NDEs.

I really admire Parnia's efforts a little more then before after reading this, frankly. I think he's a great example of somebody who has gotten to his current opinion and viewpoint through trial and error. Actually conducting studies himself several times over the last two decades. 

If I were these guys, I'd take his critiques pretty seriously. He's got several great points there that other forum members have pointed out as well. Nothing newer here then with the REM intrusion theory

Prevalence of near-death experiences and REM sleep intrusion in 1034 adults from 35 countries
Daniel Kondziella, Markus Harboe Olsen

Conclusions: The prevalence of near-death experiences in the public is around 10%. While age, gender, place of residence, employment status and perceived threat do not seem to influence the prevalence of near-death experiences, there is a significant association with REM sleep intrusion. This finding is in line with the view that despite imminent threat to life, brain physiology must be well-preserved to perceive these fascinating experiences and store them as long-term memories.

...

The main finding is the confirmation of a statistical association between NDEs and REM sleep intrusion, which had been reported previously but which might have been the result of biased sampling. As discussed in the LiveScience article, this would be consistent with the theory that NDEs are a blend of the waking and dreaming states. Parnia criticised the study on several grounds - the inclusion of experiences of people who weren't near death, the possibility that an underlying medical cause of REM sleep intrusion might explain the statistical association, and the lack of an explanation for awareness during cardiac arrest.

Cue the hand-waving, "nothing to see here", "told you so" responses of the sceptical community.

Other researchers might have mentioned the well documented cases of veridical reports of conversations overheard some distance from the scene of the NDE or ask how REM sleep might apply to someone like Pam Reynolds who had no discernible brain activity. Or simply those cases of sudden or accidental near death where sleep was not a factor. This is typical of the debunkers who constantly rehash discredited arguments just like Susan Blackmore and her anoxia theory which is still being hyped as the stock response to NDE reports.

Another consequence of the NDE affecting many (probably most) survivors is the profound and life-long psychological and life-affirming effect. This is something that has never, as far as I am aware, been produced by REM sleep. To describe the experiences as "fascinating" is to downplay them to a category of experience roughly equivalent to the memory of your first kiss or that Pink Floyd concert you attended in the 70's ... i.e. fascinating experiences which produce long term memories. By most accounts, the NDE  occupies another level of profundity entirely and this should not be ignored merely because it is regarded as subjective.

Well put, Dave! The study is badly designed and more to the point, completely irrelevant. It's already been established that REM intrusion is not the cause of NDE. Some people who have had an NDE might have lucid dreams, so what?

The only study that has any real value to settle this question once and for all is the prospective (continuing) study of hospital patients with cardiac arrest. This neurologist (Kondziella) must be badly informed if he thinks "that" is going to move NDE research along.

Edited to add this link:

https://iands.org/images/stories/pdf_dow...rusion.pdf

I don't think neurologists like Kondziella have any idea of the profound nature and impact of these experiences. Here's one I remembered from way back and found it again on someone's blog, a blog which I have never seen before. Apologies for the formatting, I can't get it to separate. 

 
[ul]
[li]Lillian Oaktree: An Asthma Attack in Hospital[/li]
[li]On my fourth night in hospital, breathing with the help of oxygen, I woke with a searing pain in my chest. It felt as if someone was thrusting a red hot poker deep inside me. As the pain grew worse I began to struggle for breath. It was terrifying. Then suddenly I was surrounded by a thick white mist. I remember feeling wide awake and the pain had gone. I thought I’d died but I wasn’t scared.[/li]
[li]A sense of calm had descended upon me and I was just relieved that the pain had gone. When the mist cleared I was standing by my hospital bed looking at my body lying motionless. I could see that I wasn’t breathing and I started to panic. I didn’t want to die.’ Lillian, who could hear doctors and nurses hurriedly treating a man who’d had a heart attack, tried to scream – but no sound came out.[/li]
[li]In a flash I was transported into a dark tunnel, travelling fast towards a bright, golden light. There was something warm and appealing about the light, I wasn’t scared any more. Within seconds I was out of the tunnel and in a lush, green countryside. There wasn’t a single cloud and the whole place bathed in a warm golden sun. There were no fences or hedges, just an endless sea of fields. All down the side were poplar trees. In the blink of an eye, the fields were filled with people, all smiling at me. It was like one big greeting party, all waiting for me.’[/li]
[li]Then Lillian says she saw her dead parents, Abe and Jacqueline, standing at the front of the crowd, motioning her to come with them. ‘Mum had died five years before,’ says Lillian, ‘She was 74 and died from kidney failure. But here she was standing before me looking like a young woman. She was radiant and healthy and her hair was a shimmering blonde. She was wearing a blue top and blue trousers. There was a glow all around her and I could feel her sending me massive waves of love. It felt amazing.’[/li]
[li]Beside her mum stood her dad who’d died after a heart attack when Lillian was just 12. ‘I’d been devastated and never quite forgiven him for leaving me, but all I felt for him now was love,’ she says. ‘He was a chef and I couldn’t help smiling because he was wearing his chef whites – the white starched shirt with the double buttons and checked trousers. His hair was jet black, too. I’d only ever seen him with grey hair, but he looked like he did in photos taken in his late 20’s. Mum said to me, telepathically, “There is something after all”, which made me laugh out loud.’[/li]
[li]It was funny to Lillian because she had always believed in an afterlife — not her mother. Now here I was, standing in this beautiful place, and Mum confirmed everything I always believed in. She never opened her mouth — she didn’t have to.’[/li]
[li]Next, Lillian saw her childhood friend Chris standing beside her parents. He’d died in a car crash at the age of 18. I was 16 when he passed away,’ she says. ‘He suffered horrendous burns in the crash and died at the scene. It may have happened years ago but not a week went by without me thinking about him. It was amazing to see him so full of life and with no hideous burns. He looked exactly how I’d remembered him. He didn’t speak but just smiled along with everybody else. It felt like they were all sending me unconditional love. I’d never felt so good'[/li]
[li]It wasn’t just humans who’d come to see Lillian. She was also reunited with her old dogs, Fluke, Random and Joule. Then Lillian says things took an even more extraordinary turn.[/li]
[li]I suddenly became aware of two, what can only be described as beings, standing on my right, she says. ‘They were 6ft tall, wearing bright cloaks and totally transparent. Where their faces should have been were balls of golden light. I remember asking what was happening and one of them said in a gentle voice, “This is the closest you’ve ever been to God”. I’d never felt so humbled but I was suddenly bathed in a bright light and every bit of my body was pulsating with energy.’[/li]
[li]Seconds later, Lillian woke up in hospital. ‘I just sat there with a renewed inner calm,’ she recalls. ‘I’d never felt so good in my entire life. It was like I’d been given a new insight into life – and death. Up to then I’d worried about everything from paying bills to upsetting people. I was one of life’s natural worriers. I’d always been like that, even as a kid. I blame my mother for telling me her worries. And the older I got, the more I worried. I had this tense feeling hanging over me, like a black cloud. I found it impossible to relax, which I’m sure contributed to me developing asthma. But it had lifted; it truly was a life-changing experience.[/li]
[li]My personality altered overnight. It’s like someone had sucked all the tension out of me. At last I felt at peace.’[/li]
[li]On a physical level there were more big changes for Lillian. For 20 years she’d used two high dose inhalers, one of them steroids. But after her near death experience she no longer needed to rely on drugs to control her asthma.”[/li]
[li]http://designyourownafterlife.com/interesting-ndes/[/li]
[/ul]

I don't think neurologists like Kondziella have any idea of the profound nature and impact of these experiences. Here's one I remembered from way back and found it again on someone's blog, a blog which I have never seen before. Apologies for the formatting, I can't get it to separate. 

 

• Lillian Oaktree: An Asthma Attack in Hospital
  
• On my fourth night in hospital, breathing with the help of oxygen, I woke with a searing pain in my chest. It felt as if someone was thrusting a red hot poker deep inside me. As the pain grew worse I began to struggle for breath. It was terrifying. Then suddenly I was surrounded by a thick white mist. I remember feeling wide awake and the pain had gone. I thought I’d died but I wasn’t scared.
  
• A sense of calm had descended upon me and I was just relieved that the pain had gone. When the mist cleared I was standing by my hospital bed looking at my body lying motionless. I could see that I wasn’t breathing and I started to panic. I didn’t want to die.’ Lillian, who could hear doctors and nurses hurriedly treating a man who’d had a heart attack, tried to scream – but no sound came out.
  
• In a flash I was transported into a dark tunnel, travelling fast towards a bright, golden light. There was something warm and appealing about the light, I wasn’t scared any more. Within seconds I was out of the tunnel and in a lush, green countryside. There wasn’t a single cloud and the whole place bathed in a warm golden sun. There were no fences or hedges, just an endless sea of fields. All down the side were poplar trees. In the blink of an eye, the fields were filled with people, all smiling at me. It was like one big greeting party, all waiting for me.’
  
• Then Lillian says she saw her dead parents, Abe and Jacqueline, standing at the front of the crowd, motioning her to come with them. ‘Mum had died five years before,’ says Lillian, ‘She was 74 and died from kidney failure. But here she was standing before me looking like a young woman. She was radiant and healthy and her hair was a shimmering blonde. She was wearing a blue top and blue trousers. There was a glow all around her and I could feel her sending me massive waves of love. It felt amazing.’
  
• Beside her mum stood her dad who’d died after a heart attack when Lillian was just 12. ‘I’d been devastated and never quite forgiven him for leaving me, but all I felt for him now was love,’ she says. ‘He was a chef and I couldn’t help smiling because he was wearing his chef whites – the white starched shirt with the double buttons and checked trousers. His hair was jet black, too. I’d only ever seen him with grey hair, but he looked like he did in photos taken in his late 20’s. Mum said to me, telepathically, “There is something after all”, which made me laugh out loud.’
  
• It was funny to Lillian because she had always believed in an afterlife — not her mother. Now here I was, standing in this beautiful place, and Mum confirmed everything I always believed in. She never opened her mouth — she didn’t have to.’
  
• Next, Lillian saw her childhood friend Chris standing beside her parents. He’d died in a car crash at the age of 18. I was 16 when he passed away,’ she says. ‘He suffered horrendous burns in the crash and died at the scene. It may have happened years ago but not a week went by without me thinking about him. It was amazing to see him so full of life and with no hideous burns. He looked exactly how I’d remembered him. He didn’t speak but just smiled along with everybody else. It felt like they were all sending me unconditional love. I’d never felt so good'
  
• It wasn’t just humans who’d come to see Lillian. She was also reunited with her old dogs, Fluke, Random and Joule. Then Lillian says things took an even more extraordinary turn.
  
• I suddenly became aware of two, what can only be described as beings, standing on my right, she says. ‘They were 6ft tall, wearing bright cloaks and totally transparent. Where their faces should have been were balls of golden light. I remember asking what was happening and one of them said in a gentle voice, “This is the closest you’ve ever been to God”. I’d never felt so humbled but I was suddenly bathed in a bright light and every bit of my body was pulsating with energy.’
  
• Seconds later, Lillian woke up in hospital. ‘I just sat there with a renewed inner calm,’ she recalls. ‘I’d never felt so good in my entire life. It was like I’d been given a new insight into life – and death. Up to then I’d worried about everything from paying bills to upsetting people. I was one of life’s natural worriers. I’d always been like that, even as a kid. I blame my mother for telling me her worries. And the older I got, the more I worried. I had this tense feeling hanging over me, like a black cloud. I found it impossible to relax, which I’m sure contributed to me developing asthma. But it had lifted; it truly was a life-changing experience.
  
• My personality altered overnight. It’s like someone had sucked all the tension out of me. At last I felt at peace.’
  
• On a physical level there were more big changes for Lillian. For 20 years she’d used two high dose inhalers, one of them steroids. But after her near death experience she no longer needed to rely on drugs to control her asthma.”
  
• http://designyourownafterlife.com/interesting-ndes/
  

Remarkable. Thank you.

Didn't Dr. Jeffrey Long demolish the REM intrusion argument by stating that it’s physiologically impossible for a person blind since birth to experience REM intrusion, yet we have a couple of cases of such people experiencing an NDE in which they were able to see for the first time? Lately, pseudo-skeptics seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Didn't Dr. Jeffrey Long demolish the REM intrusion argument by stating that it’s physiologically impossible for a person blind since birth to experience REM intrusion, yet we have a couple of cases of such people experiencing an NDE in which they were able to see for the first time? Lately, pseudo-skeptics seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Why should it be physiologically impossible for someone blind since birth to experience REM intrusion?