Medical Conditions and Unexplained Experiences of Children

Mod here.

This type of posting is not appropriate for the ECP forum. Please be mindful of where you post given your views.

(Or, alternatively, ask Sciborg if he wants to move the thread outside of this forum to allow or engage in skeptic vs. proponent discussion.)

I removed the offending line.

Children, by virtue of their developmental stage, are typically more receptive to the inputs and beliefs of authority figures, such as parents. (e.g. see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10074684/). This attribute can compromise the validity of the memories they report. If parents hold beliefs in for example reincarnation, it might unintentionally influence the children's statements and memories, either by generating or shaping them. This issue casts doubts on the reliability of the data Stevenson presents.

Your point about parental or authority-figure influence is very much a double-edged sword. That is to say, it may explain why such reports may appear to be rare in western countries where such ideas fall outside the bounds of what might be considered acceptable. If one assumes some unattainable ideal system of child-rearing where all such influence is absent, would we see fewer or greater numbers of instances past-life recall in children?

@Ninshub we could conceivably move the thread or make a new thread in SvP.

I don't mind the debate but my original intention was to discuss/debate the views of proponents in this thread not the usual SvP stuff.

If you move the thread I can make a new one...once I make headway in the actual book...

Your point about parental or authority-figure influence is very much a double-edged sword. That is to say, it may explain why such reports may appear to be rare in western countries where such ideas fall outside the bounds of what might be considered acceptable. If one assumes some unattainable ideal system of child-rearing where all such influence is absent, would we see fewer or greater numbers of instances past-life recall in children?

This is exactly my point. There’s so many potential issues with testimonies from small children. I’m not saying there hasn’t been some interesting cases (and I would love it all to be true), but this would have a lot more attention in our part of the world if kids commonly talked about past lives.

This is exactly my point. There’s so many potential issues with testimonies from small children. I’m not saying there hasn’t been some interesting cases (and I would love it all to be true), but this would have a lot more attention in our part of the world if kids commonly talked about past lives.

I think it's fair to wonder why there aren't vastly more CORTs, but it seems to me there's weight against talking about paranormal experiences and discouraging children from doing so.

We know the atheist-materialist fundies definitely want to try and shame people from discussing anything supernatural, but in addition to that religion there are other faiths that would deny much Survival evidence for their own reasons.

This is exactly my point. There’s so many potential issues with testimonies from small children. I’m not saying there hasn’t been some interesting cases (and I would love it all to be true), but this would have a lot more attention in our part of the world if kids commonly talked about past lives.

I think you missed my point. However @Sciborg_S_Patel did properly point out at least two of the obstacles. Myself, I didn't intend to enumerate all of them them at length, I incorrectly assumed them to be self-evident.

I should point out that I'm perfectly accepting that children come into possession of information (experience) that is not their own, and I enjoyed reading Stevensons book European Cases of the Reincarnation Type. Recent Epigenetic inheritance studies seem to confirm that such a mechanism exists too. In some cases where a woman has been raped or had consensual sex with another man and kept it secret, the mechanisms that lies behind these epigenetic studies may be particularly relevant. I actually know of such a case in my own life, neither the child nor the husband know anything about it, but the husbands wife, and the biological father do know about it - these things go on - particularly before easy birth control, or in countries who do not have good access to easy birth control.

The article you linked to seemed more interested in the biological connection, rather than just the anomalous memories. It specifically mentions a different Stevenson book Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect. I thought that was a very poor book, really weak evidence presented. There were cases without photo's, evidence that had been lost and unable to be checked, and wounds clearly dissimilar, or in the wrong place. I couldn't believe that some of the cases had been thought good enough to put in the book. From memory, I don't think he was particularly convinced by the cases he presented in that book.

The cases definitely vary, and I can't say I've read every single one - I still need to finish Old Souls as well!

I recall a rather old Skeptiko interview, possibly a decade ago at this point, where a psychologist said he thought that there were four really good CORTs that he felt were definitive cases of reincarnation. Sadly as far as I recall he didn't say which four...

Children, by virtue of their developmental stage, are typically more receptive to the inputs and beliefs of authority figures, such as parents. (e.g. see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10074684/). This attribute can compromise the validity of the memories they report. If parents hold beliefs in for example reincarnation, it might unintentionally influence the children's statements and memories, either by generating or shaping them. This issue casts doubts on the reliability of the data Stevenson presents.

So you seem to be saying that IF there is a real phenomenon in which children report previous lives (typically only one) THEN we must ignore that because of the possibility of parental influences!

This disregards the efforts that Stevenson took to eliminate such effects.

I haven't got children, but I try to imagine what I would do if I had a young child reporting such memories. I guess I'd probably put the welfare of my child first, and not invite investigators into the house. If I'm typical, it is likely that far more of these children remain uninvestigated in the west. Indeed, it may be a fairly common phenomenon.

I understand from what you said in the past that you are inclined to believe in non-materialistic forces, However, you don't seem to realise that a lot of influential people believe the other way with a passion, and any argument - however convoluted - is worth trying if it rules out another slice of the evidence against materialism.

David

We know the atheist-materialist fundies definitely want to try and shame people from discussing anything supernatural, but in addition to that religion there are other faiths that would deny much Survival evidence for their own reasons

This is my point. We like to discuss potentially supernatural phenomena here in an even handed, scientific way, but we ignore the intense societal pressures pushing the other way.

David

This is my point. We like to discuss potentially supernatural phenomena here in an even handed, scientific way, but we ignore the intense societal pressures pushing the other way.

David

I’m not sure about the “societal pressure” argument. Actually atheism is on the decline worldwide. It’s getting increasingly more accepted to talk about these things. It’s however difficult to discuss subjective experiences in an objective manner. I think that’s contributing to putting the lid on discussions.