Is it the brain that produces dreams?

You might want to change the title of the thread to avoid confusion, as I'm guessing we are going to be talking about mind vs brain and not necessarily mind/brain/dream... Just a thought.

Anyway there are lots of sources of evidence to support the theory that the brain plays a more secondary role than we have always imagined.

I need to assemble some links to this stuff so pardon me if I don't get into all the details right at this moment. This is why I was delaying a bit before creating the thread. But since Brian did that let, me mention a few things for now...

1- There are many examples in medical situations where patients shouldn't have much if any brain function, but they report deep experiences. These are usually associated with NDE or OBEs. And it's not just the ability to see or hear, its the cognitive and experiential quality of the experience I'm talking about. A vastly diminished brain should not be capable of higher thought, never mind "hyper real" levels of experience.
 
Typical skeptical responses are that the person had the experiences at a different time than reported (this has been refuted in many cases by external time references), or that the brain was actually not that diminished (this is usually done with a wave of the hand with little evidence to support).

2- There are tests that have asked a person to make a decision and it has been shown that the decision must have been made before the signal was present in the brain.

3- It has been shown that the speed of signal transition through nerves is not electrical, but chemical, and that the speed is actually quite slow. So slow in fact that that it seems the muscle must begin motion BEFORE the signal has reached it. Thereby indicting some un anticipated, possibly non-physical connection and possibly that the brain is NOT initiating this movement in the first place.

4- The medically supported and reported "missing brain" problem. Cases have been reported numerous times. Sometimes there is profound deficit in these cases and in other little or no deficit.

5- The Two ball optical illusion. Will need to explain and provide link to picture, to show you how this works.

You need to provide citations that clearly demonstrate each you have listed. I think you have at least one misunderstanding that would be #2. I think it should read an decision is made subconsciously before the person becomes consciously aware.

Yes. Just like a few hundred years ago some people explained why sailors could sail around the world back to their departure point without being eaten by dragons (the other mystery). And what they said was a deep and unexplained mystery at the time: that gravity could hold us all to a huge sphere. But it was eventually explained.  And like that mystery, at least the mystery I am using, comports with observations.

First- we already know a fully functioning brain is not completely necessary as shown by the cases of hydrocephalus and less convincingly to some, NDE. That's already been demonstrated right?.

Now: we know it seems to be a critical organ for most people, that is also undeniable. So that might help explain to you why it seems so important in terms of energy use and evolution.

As to it's actual purpose? Why are you assuming that if evolution has decided it is so important (BTW- I'm not fully on-board with this line of thinking, but I admit it is wide-spread in science) that it must be because it is the core of our soul or cognition? Is it not important enough that it seems to be deeply and inextricably involved with every sense and muscle action we produce? 

Is that not important enough for you? 

Must it be MORE important than that? If so, why?

You assume far more than has been verified.

I would say we are ALL doing that. 

So in saying this, you are just "the pot calling the kettle black".

You need to provide citations that clearly demonstrate each you have listed. I think you have at least one misunderstanding that would be #2. I think it should read an decision is made subconsciously before the person becomes consciously aware.

I have made these citations in a follow on post.

Let me know when you've read them, what you think. 

I have more if you like...

To be honest- That's just the starting point of my assertion.  I am ALSO claiming that it plays a minor, or maybe we could call it, a supporting role, in memory and cognition as well. And perhaps even with sense data, it is not omnipotent.

It seems to play an important role in recall  for the physical human being that’s for sure. Exactly what its role is in the storage of memories is anyone’s guess as far as I can see. That’s without even considering the implications of NDE phenomena and after-death communications.

It's a consolidation of 10 years of work, and then some, so I wouldn't expect people to get it... maybe get parts of it... most people look at me as if I'm off my rocker... but it's proven useful to me to put these thoughts down in writing anyway. The second to last para are difficult ideas that are my most recent from the last year or so.

I don't think you're off your rocker but I've never been able to understand how you can ignore the simpler explanation that fits the data (disembodied minds) and is in accordance with the people who report it, for your theory which has to endow brain cells with (no electrical activity after 10-20 seconds) with ultra-monumental capabilities that stretch the imagination way beyond breaking point.

You're  explaining one mystery using another mystery. Think about this. Would evolution go through all the trouble to produce a brain that uses 20% of the energy the whole body needs to function if it weren't necessary? Your basic fault is assuming the testimonial provided by Reynolds and Speltzer is an accurate accounting. Without a time machine to verify what happened we won't ever know how accurate the testimonials are. You assume far more than has been verified. I can't comment on Eben.

Your basic fault is assuming the testimonial provided by Reynolds and Speltzer is an accurate accounting.

I don't think you're off your rocker but I've never been able to understand how you can ignore the simpler explanation that fits the data (disembodied minds) and is in accordance with the people who report it, for your theory which has to endow brain cells with (no electrical activity after 10-20 seconds) with ultra-monumental capabilities that stretch the imagination way beyond breaking point.

How is the mystery of the disembodied mind the simpler? From you and people whom  hold this belief and that's only what it is go into no detail how a disembodied mind works. Saying it's simple doesn't mean it is.

Yes. Just like a few hundred years ago some people explained why sailors could sail around the world back to their departure point, and what they said was a deep and unexplained mystery at the time: that gravity could hold us all to a huge sphere. But it was eventually explained.  And like that mystery, at least the mystery I am using, comports with observations.

First- we already know a fully functioning brain is not completely necessary as shown by the cases of hydrocephalus and less convincingly to some, NDE. That's already been demonstrated right?.

Now: we know it seems to be a critical organ for most people, that is also undeniable. So that might help explain to you why it seems so important in terms of energy use and evolution.

As to it's actual purpose? Why are you assuming that if evolution has decided it is so important (BTW- I'm not fully on-board with this line of thinking, but I admit it is wide-spread in science) that it must be because it is the core of our soul or cognition? Is it not important enough that it seems to be deeply and inextricably involved with every sense and muscle action we produce?

Is that not important enough for you? 

Must it be MORE important than that? If so, why?

I make such assumption because every animal with a complex brain exhibits complex behaviors and cognition  Animals without do not. Take for example  *Einstein's brain had more glial cells than an average brain. Further reading: http://scientificbrains.com/5-reaons-why...elligence/ 
Where in the heck did you get the grossly mistaken thought the brain plays host to the soul from me? The soul is an unproven belief.


*https://www.inc.com/mithu-storoni/what-einsteins-brain-tells-us-about-intelligence-a.html

How is the mystery of the disembodied mind the simpler? From you and people whom  hold this belief and that's only what it is go into no detail how a disembodied mind works. Saying it's simple doesn't mean it is.

Okay, I've tried to explain this to you before, Steve so I'll give it another go.

You cannot measure or see the human "mind" (the self)  but we know it exists, that's a fact that's not debateable. It's not your skull, it's not your eyeballs, it's not even the cells (neurons) that you claim produce it. It's not even the thoughts that the "mind" produces but although thoughts exist, just like the mind, we can't see them in an FMRI scanner.

As the mind is immaterial it seems quite reasonable to assume it could in theory at least pass "through" "or out of" the machine (brain) which either "produces" it or "harbours" it... even if it's just for a brief period. Radio waves pass through physical substance.

The reports on which the data has been gathered come from people who claim that their consciousness, their self ...somehow left or exited their physical body (usually out of the head). They feel everything that is vital about them, separating and rising up to a position where they are able to observe in real time reality everything that is going on around them.  That "mind" or "self" that they were used to experiencing from within their skull, is now OUT of their skull.

They can literally (as far as they are concerned) see themselves (their physical body)  below. They know it.

If their reports are accurate (and they are ) then the simplest explanation is that their "self" or "mind" was somehow able to relocate away from their bodies. I understand the difficulty this produces in sceptics...they want to observe and measure whatever this "mind" or "self" is, they want to see it floating around ......but they can't "see" or "measure" the mind now, inside the skull ....but we know it exists ! Why not just be open to it and wait and see what the experiments eventually reveal ?

Surely you must at least acknowledge that it may well happen to you. Why do you (clearly) assume that you would not accept it as being real, just as the millions of other people have done ?