In the Animal Kingdom, the Astonishing Power of the Number Instinct

[Laird]

If, say, chickens have souls; how far down the chain does that continue?  Insects? Cellular-level animals?

I don't have a view on it, but these questions struck me as I was reading the dialogue.

It's an interesting question. As Sci has pointed out, there are different conceptions of "soul". I think though that a minimum requirement for a soul is consciousness, so we'd first have to determine how far consciousness extends. Is it possible to be conscious and not have a soul? Logically, it seems to be, but I tend not to think that metaphysically that is ever the case. Since I tend to believe that consciousness extends to all life, and even into "objects" that are not typically seen as also being subjects (I am, like AussieMike, an "aspiring animist"), I tend to think that pretty much everything (every coherent "object") has a soul. I guess it gets tricky though when you ask questions like, "At what point in the construction of the coherent object that is a desk does it become ensouled? And what if construction is aborted? And is each individual piece of wood in the desk ensouled too?", but I'm not claiming to have everything worked out.

It's an interesting question. As Sci has pointed out, there are different conceptions of "soul". I think though that a minimum requirement for a soul is consciousness, so we'd first have to determine how far consciousness extends. Is it possible to be conscious and not have a soul? Logically, it seems to be, but I tend not to think that metaphysically that is ever the case. Since I tend to believe that consciousness extends to all life, and even into "objects" that are not typically seen as also being subjects (I am, like AussieMike, an "aspiring animist"), I tend to think that pretty much everything (every coherent "object") has a soul. I guess it gets tricky though when you ask questions like, "At what point in the construction of the coherent object that is a desk does it become ensouled? And what if construction is aborted? And is each individual piece of wood in the desk ensouled too?", but I'm not claiming to have everything worked out.

It's an interesting question, though it is a challenge to link this kind of panpsychic-animism to cases [AFAIK]. We have cases where people have witnessed spirits, just as we have cases of animals experiencing an afterlife.

I believe some of the cultures that produce spirits which were witnessed by "objective" observers are Animist, so that's a kind of indirect support. There's also a philosophical case for all coherent entities to have consciousness, so every atom of a rock might have mentality but not the rock itself. 

But you don't need all of this for animal souls, which do figure in Survival literature. Combine this with cases of animal Psi...if Psi effects exist b/c of consciousness being non-local then it would suggest they share our afterlives. Of course one can deny the link between Psi and the afterlife, like the Super Psi advocates do.

As to the suffering of animals, I'd say a great deal of human suffering also seems rather pointless. If higher level entities have reasons to incarnate and experience human suffering perhaps they've got reasons to experience animal suffering. Or perhaps there just isn't much rhyme or reason to the Afterlife/Prelife, because it is a set of disparate locations rather than some organized Heaven.

[Laird]

Depends on what a "soul" is. Some possibilities:

A nice list. Another possibility of which I've heard - a sort of New Age (and maybe to some extent Christian?) notion - is that the soul is a sort of container which stores everything that is essential about our identity along with all of the experiences we've had, and the lessons we've learnt, in all of our lives.

A nice list. Another possibility of which I've heard - a sort of New Age (and maybe to some extent Christian?) notion - is that the soul is a sort of container which stores everything that is essential about our identity along with all of the experiences we've had, and the lessons we've learnt, in all of our lives.

Aren't you describing the so-called Akashic records (a concept I don't particularly adhere to), rather than a soul, which to me seems more involved with a state of being, something to do with the eternal now?

[Laird]

Aren't you describing the so-called Akashic records (a concept I don't particularly adhere to), rather than a soul, which to me seems more involved with a state of being, something to do with the eternal now?

Perhaps so. I'm also thinking though of the idea of "selling" your soul, which implies that it is some sort of valuable entity separable from the self. In any case, I can't google up any references for the description I offered, so you're probably right.

Perhaps so. I'm also thinking though of the idea of "selling" your soul, which implies that it is some sort of valuable entity separable from the self. In any case, I can't google up any references for the description I offered, so you're probably right.

I thought selling your soul meant getting some favor from a devil or fairie queen, but your afterlife is then to suffer or serve in that being's domain?

Not sure if any Survival cases exist where such a seller confirms their fate. Obviously there can always be more or less to reality than what Survival cases give us, but it seems like a good evidential starting point.

[Laird]

I thought selling your soul meant getting some favor from a devil or fairie queen, but your afterlife is then to suffer or serve in that being's domain?

Yes, that's definitely one meaning for it. I suspect that, as you have pointed out with the meaning of "soul" itself, there is more than one possibility for what "selling" it means.

Not sure if any Survival cases exist where such a seller confirms their fate. Obviously there can always be more or less to reality than what Survival cases give us, but it seems like a good evidential starting point.

I'm not sure either, but then I'm not very well-read in this area anyway.

I imagine that somebody in that situation would probably not have the means to contact us here: they would be too caught up in their suffering/servitude. Perhaps the best hope for evidence would be for some NDEr/OBEr/visionary to "visit" the place of suffering/servitude and witness the person in bondage - perhaps verified by the person in bondage revealing otherwise-unknown information that could be confirmed when the visitor returns home.

The word soul is problematic because different cultures have translated it from different concepts.  Biblically, God created Adam from the dust of the Earth then breathed life into him and he became a living soul (or living being)  There is no evidence of a soul separate from the body in the Bible until Greek thinking starts to penetrate Christian thinking in the New Testament.  Even then, it's arguably interpretable.  Perhaps it's wise to forget the word and use something we can all agree on instead. 

The Bible also says that not just animals, but the whole creation groans in eager anticipation, waiting for the sons of God to be revealed, and that the whole creation will be liberated from its bondage to decay.

That's where I stand for what it's worth.

The word soul is problematic because different cultures have translated it from different concepts.  Biblically, God created Adam from the dust of the Earth then breathed life into him and he became a living soul (or living being)  There is no evidence of a soul separate from the body in the Bible until Greek thinking starts to penetrate Christian thinking in the New Testament.  Even then, it's arguably interpretable.  Perhaps it's wise to forget the word and use something we can all agree on instead. 

The Bible also says that not just animals, but the whole creation groans in eager anticipation, waiting for the sons of God to be revealed, and that the whole creation will be liberated from its bondage to decay.

That's where I stand for what it's worth.

Yeah, I wish I could recall the Catholic writer who said when you die you actually cease to exist until the Resurrection.

The idea caused quite a stir in the class my advisor taught, which is understandable as most of us - including myself - cannot help but think the person who "comes back" is a new copy. I suppose if resurrection is rewinding time this would be less troublesome but it requires us to get a handle on what Time is...

Yeah, I wish I could recall the Catholic writer who said when you die you actually cease to exist until the Resurrection.

The idea caused quite a stir in the class my advisor taught, which is understandable as most of us - including myself - cannot help but think the person who "comes back" is a new copy. I suppose if resurrection is rewinding time this would be less troublesome but it requires us to get a handle on what Time is...

I used to have that problem with the Star Trek teleporter.

Perhaps the "soul" is in a way separate from the body but nonetheless requires a body in order to be conscious.  That way we can perhaps accept resurrection better while allowing for a sleeping soul.  It's also akin to something I have been thinking a lot of - namely that consciousness and matter require each other in order to exist.