Henry Stapp - Is Consciousness Entirely Physical?

Sorry, maybe I was being a bit cryptic!

My point is that only UG3 was making a helpful suggestion, UG2 and UG1 were too concerned with grandiose schemes or with the possibility that they might be redeployed in more menial tasks!

I feel that UG3 represents the kind of science we need. It should explore a theory of consciousness that takes its clues from the body of parapsychological and related evidence, and not from extreme abstraction.

David

A theory of consciousness that only relies on parapsychology and related evidence will be very slow to get anywhere, because of science's inherent limitations in studying the non-physical. Perhaps the real problem is that parapsychology is attempting to present evidence in an overly hostile scientific climate in which it is always dismissed, attacked and belittled. Maybe it will win out one day...

But the fact remains that scientific experimentation is a very inefficient means of exploring the paranormal. The paranormal is not stable, concrete or consistent like material and physical things. The paranormal is moody, abstract and whimsical at best. Strength of telepathy can depend on the telepath's state of mental well-being, for example. Psychic abilities are easily inhibited by negative emotions.

Perhaps science as it currently is simply isn't equipped to study the paranormal because it lacks the right methodologies... maybe science needs to evolve to a point that it would look unrecognizable to our current perception of it.

Maybe Tesla had a point...

“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”

“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”

Modern science pays merely lip-service to energy, frequency and vibration, preferring to hold desperately to the classical physical worldview of billiard balls. I've seen some papers that claim to try and explain the quantum in terms of purely classical physics, so there are some desperate to return us to what is effectively the dark ages of science, when Newtonian physicists were so certain they had "solved" physics, that everyone could just go home.

The worship of Newtonian classical physics is weird because Newton himself believed that matter didn't exist, that all existed was the ghost in the machine. In an odd sense, Newton was effectively an Idealist...

Enough of my rambling, I suppose. Maybe my point is hopefully clear, or maybe it got lost somewhere...

[trimmed excerpt]
But the fact remains that scientific experimentation is a very inefficient means of exploring the paranormal. The paranormal is not stable, concrete or consistent like material and physical things. The paranormal is moody, abstract and whimsical at best. Strength of telepathy can depend on the telepath's state of mental well-being, for example. Psychic abilities are easily inhibited by negative emotions.

Perhaps science as it currently is simply isn't equipped to study the paranormal because it lacks the right methodologies... maybe science needs to evolve to a point that it would look unrecognizable to our current perception of it.

Some of what you wrote set of a slight change in the direction of my thoughts. We each of us have in our own way an ability to explore consciousness. However the concept of 'paranormal' is perhaps a distraction or red herring. I mean in that if our goal is to achieve for example psychokinesis or clairvoyance or out-of-body experience, that's all very well, but these things could be regarded as ornaments or feats of 'spiritual athleticism'. Just as in everyday life we are not all of us athletes, especially at different times of our life when we may have various factors such physical ill-health or simple advancing years which limit physical athleticism, there are likely in the context of our consciousness various reasons why we are not likely to excel in feats of the paranormal. But does that mean we cannot explore consciousness for ourselves? Very much it is unimportant, we can explore what we do have, rather than what we do not.

I'm thinking in particular of practices such as meditation, which may take many forms, it needn't be any sort of formalised or esoteric methodology, but simply following what comes naturally. One example which I found, some years ago I took an interest in calligraphy and spent some time practising various styles and forms within that area. What I discovered was that while engaging in the physical craft of penmanship, I tended to enter a meditational state almost unnoticed. It is the effortlessness of entering a different state of consciousness which I found of interest. I mention calligraphy not particularly as a recommendation, only as an example, we will each have our own interests to follow.

I guess what I'm saying is that we can explore consciousness in an effortless way, and in ways which suit us as individuals. by finding some way of entering a calm inner state and observing our thoughts. The expectation of paranormal outcomes is a kind of hoping there will be fireworks or something spectacular or dramatic, which is actually misleading since what we seek may be in quietness and peace, not in high drama.

These thoughts of mine don't particularly help with what one might term a scientific investigation, but that could be my point. We need to study consciousness on its own terms, not according to some organised system such as science which has a different purpose.

Some of what you wrote set of a slight change in the direction of my thoughts. We each of us have in our own way an ability to explore consciousness. However the concept of 'paranormal' is perhaps a distraction or red herring. I mean in that if our goal is to achieve for example psychokinesis or clairvoyance or out-of-body experience, that's all very well, but these things could be regarded as ornaments or feats of 'spiritual athleticism'. Just as in everyday life we are not all of us athletes, especially at different times of our life when we may have various factors such physical ill-health or simple advancing years which limit physical athleticism, there are likely in the context of our consciousness various reasons why we are not likely to excel in feats of the paranormal. But does that mean we cannot explore consciousness for ourselves? Very much it is unimportant, we can explore what we do have, rather than what we do not.

I'm thinking in particular of practices such as meditation, which may take many forms, it needn't be any sort of formalised or esoteric methodology, but simply following what comes naturally. One example which I found, some years ago I took an interest in calligraphy and spent some time practising various styles and forms within that area. What I discovered was that while engaging in the physical craft of penmanship, I tended to enter a meditational state almost unnoticed. It is the effortlessness of entering a different state of consciousness which I found of interest. I mention calligraphy not particularly as a recommendation, only as an example, we will each have our own interests to follow.

I guess what I'm saying is that we can explore consciousness in an effortless way, and in ways which suit us as individuals. by finding some way of entering a calm inner state and observing our thoughts. The expectation of paranormal outcomes is a kind of hoping there will be fireworks or something spectacular or dramatic, which is actually misleading since what we seek may be in quietness and peace, not in high drama.

I quite agree, though explorations of consciousness are may what have led to development of paranormal abilities, for better or worse, though I think it takes lifetimes for that sort of thing to actually manifest, given the rarity of paranormal abilities.

Meditation indeed needn't be formalized, but it can be dangerous without structure. Calligraphy is a form of structure, which makes it safe. I guess any sort of consciousness exploration without structure can be dangerous, as you're just jumping in an ocean with no direction or focus. Martial arts can be a form of meditative structure, where you are in the flow of it. Energy work arts like Qi Gong are much more focused, but can also be seen as a form of meditation, albeit in attuning the body and mind to flow as one.

Not all structures are useful however ~ I find Zen Buddhism and the like to be very... anti-reality in a way. It goes beyond mere seeking peace within, to rejecting reality as an illusion that is to be meditated away, to be perceived as delusion to be let go of, where mind only exists due to "attachment" to, well, effectively nothing, as the foundations of mind are also considered to be illusions...

These thoughts of mine don't particularly help with what one might term a scientific investigation, but that could be my point. We need to study consciousness on its own terms, not according to some organised system such as science which has a different purpose.

Especially when all science can seem to do is find a nearly infinite amount of physical correlates that say nothing meaningful except that, yes, physical correlates exist, for the nth time. If we can never find a mind as experienced by mind using the methods of science, we must turn to tools that can.

And we have many tools... meditation, trance states, hypnosis, psychedelics, other substances, etc. There's plenty of tools for a "science" of mind, but it is entirely different in methodology than science as we know it. The expectations need to be entirely different, as minds don't have any stable, certain structure that material and physical things demonstrate.