Doug's anomalous experiences

Thanks for posting your concern, Obiwan. I suppose the probability of my having missed a subtle, mundane cause at the time of the incident will necessarily always remain non-zero, but I believe I was a conscientious enough observer to effectively rule out a physical cause for the phenomenon.

As to whether I later misremembered one or more details of the experience...all I can say is that I did query my brother about his observations at the time of the incident (as well as a few years ago), and found that they substantially agreed with mine. In addition, I can't for the life of me envision a scenario in which both my brother and I saw something other than what we assert and mistook it for dancing shoelaces.

Thanks Doug. I wasn’t suggesting you’d missed anything subtle really, just making the point that in the general case it’s a consideration. I think you saw exactly what you said however it’s past my boggle-threshold if you get me?

One of my closest friends, a person of intellect, honesty and perception has had experiences which render any debate about survival redundant. Do I believe him? Yes. Am I convinced of survival? Curiously no. They are so beyond my experience I need to see it for myself.

Thanks Doug. I wasn’t suggesting you’d missed anything subtle really, just making the point that in the general case it’s a consideration. I think you saw exactly what you said however it’s past my boggle-threshold if you get me?

I understand, Obiwan. I've had a half-century to get used to the experience to where it's lost all possible boggle value for me. It's just a curious little something that my brother and I witnessed long ago, whereas others reading my account for the first time may recoil in shock at its in-your-face outlandishness. That's one big reason for my reluctance to share it online for so long. I feared many of the psi proponents here wouldn't be able to accept it as an accurate rendition of what I witnessed.

I understand, Obiwan. I've had a half-century to get used to the experience to where it's lost all possible boggle value for me. It's just a curious something that my brother and I experienced long ago, whereas others reading my account for the first time may recoil in shock at its in-your-face outlandishness. That's one big reason for my reluctance to share it online for so long. I feared many of the psi proponents here wouldn't be able to accept it as an accurate rendition of what I witnessed.

Yes it’s very curious Doug. I’ve heard many experiences that are so beyond my own experience of life they’re hard to get my head round. I believe the honesty of the people reporting them though because I know them. I just have to accept that I’m still developing. That said, there are things I’d accept now that I would have dismissed out of hand twenty years ago so who knows? Lol

Yes it’s very curious Doug. I’ve heard many experiences that are so beyond my own experience of life they’re hard to get my head round. I believe the honesty of the people reporting them though because I know them. I just have to accept that I’m still developing. That said, there are things I’d accept now that I would have dismissed out of hand twenty years ago so who knows? Lol

Obiwan, I offer the following speculation as an aid toward accepting the reality of incidents of psi (especially of the MMI (mind-matter interaction) type), regardless of complexity or level of bizarreness. Feel free to reject it if you'd rather not entertain the notions advanced therein:

I believe the materialist view of reality is fallacious, in that it explicitly prohibits (as far as I can tell) all manifestations of psi. For my own sanity, I long ago replaced it with an idealist conception. This is because only idealism recognizes the fundamental role played by consciousness, accepting as it does, all physical phenomena as ultimate manifestations of mind.

Materialism necessarily rejects that role. Hence its practitioners are forced to go to often ridiculous lengths to defend their view by "explaining" psi occurrences in mundane terms. It's no wonder that skeptics ignore all personal testimony about psychic phenomena, disparagingly referring to sincere and detailed accounts as "anecdotes", and sternly reminding the rest of us of the malleability of memory. Their worldview simply cannot tolerate such accounts, and they won't accept a reality in which the "laws" of nature are rather fluid. Unfortunately, it seems (in my experience at least), that all too many psi proponents also accept materialism as their explanation for reality, perhaps without realizing that it spells instant doom for the occurrence of psi phenomena.

Obiwan, I offer the following speculation as an aid toward accepting the reality of incidents of psi (especially of the MMI (mind-matter interaction) type), regardless of complexity or level of bizarreness. Feel free to reject it if you'd rather not entertain the notions advanced therein:

I believe the materialist view of reality is fallacious, in that it explicitly prohibits (as far as I can tell) all manifestations of psi. For my own sanity, I long ago replaced it with an idealist conception. This is because only idealism recognizes the fundamental role played by consciousness, accepting as it does, all physical phenomena as ultimate manifestations of mind.

Materialism necessarily rejects that role. Hence its practitioners are forced to go to often ridiculous lengths to defend their view by "explaining" psi occurrences in mundane terms. It's no wonder that skeptics ignore all personal testimony about psychic phenomena, disparagingly referring to sincere and detailed accounts as "anecdotes", and sternly reminding the rest of us of the malleability of memory. Their worldview simply cannot tolerate such accounts, and they won't accept a reality in which the "laws" of nature are rather fluid. Unfortunately, it seems (in my experience at least), that all too many psi proponents also accept materialism as their explanation for reality, perhaps without realizing that it spells instant doom for the occurrence of psi phenomena.

Thanks Doug. I don’t have a final ‘model’ in mind myself although the role of consciousness (ie mind?) even in modern physics has long been identified hasn’t it?

The trouble with thinking one has the final story (religious or materialist) is that everything afterwards has to be shoehorned into one’s philosophy or, failing that, dismissed somehow doesn’t it?

PS I seem to be having lots of problems posting and editing at the moment.

[Ninshub]

Doug, I don't know if you can answer this. Obviously when this happened it bewildered you and I expect nothing remotely close had ever happened to you before, but I wonder if you are able to go back introspectively and measure somehow if you were more open, on an emotional or preconscious level, to this sort of shock to "reality", than the average person?

I'm asking because I wonder if people experience mind-bogglers to the extent that their "blogger threshold", as Obiwan put it, is low enough (or is it high enough? anyway, you get my meaning). Or do you have any other ideas as to why an experience like this, along with the others you've had, would happen to you, and not your neighbor? Or is it just a giant mystery to you.

Although I recognize that in this particular experience, you brother shared it with you, so this has to apply to him as well.

(Respond when you can, no pressure on answering quickly.)

Thanks Doug. I don’t have a final ‘model’ in mind myself although the role of consciousness (ie mind?) even in modern physics has long been identified hasn’t it?

Hmm, as far as I know, Obi, there's no role for consciousness/mind in modern physics, at least as practiced by materialist scientists, which are a large majority. To them, consciousness/mind is merely an epiphenomenon of the brain's chemical processes. However, perhaps Dave (Karmarling) will step in and correct me. He seems to be better-grounded in the science than I am.  

The trouble with thinking one has the final story (religious or materialist) is that everything afterwards has to be shoehorned into one’s philosophy or, failing that, dismissed somehow doesn’t it?

While I can certainly appreciate the thought behind this statement, I'm not sure how much of it I can agree with. I think materialism is clearly wrong, and most religions perhaps a bit less wrong (because at least they seem to accept the reality of "miracles"). Yet there are other philosophies/belief systems to choose from, and the big contender (IMO) is idealism. To my mind, idealism permits anything in physical reality, based as it is on consciousness being the primary constituent of reality. With such a system, the question of "how" can be replaced with "why", and so psychology becomes an important ingredient for the study of psi phenomena.  

PS I seem to be having lots of problems posting and editing at the moment.

Fingers crossed that the glitch was temporary.

The trouble with thinking one has the final story (religious or materialist) is that everything afterwards has to be shoehorned into one’s philosophy or, failing that, dismissed somehow doesn’t it?

My position as a christian is that there are many things in life that neither support nor negate my faith.  The universe is simply a whole lot bigger than my religious beliefs.  God won't disappear in a puff of  logic just because Doug's shoelaces didn't behave in a biblical fashion.

Hmm, as far as I know, Obi, there's no role for consciousness/mind in modern physics, at least as practiced by materialist scientists, which are a large majority. To them, consciousness/mind is merely an epiphenomenon of the brain's chemical processes. However, perhaps Dave (Karmarling) will step in and correct me. He seems to be better-grounded in the science than I am.  


While I can certainly appreciate the thought behind this statement, I'm not sure how much of it I can agree with. I think materialism is clearly wrong, and most religions perhaps a bit less wrong (because at least they seem to accept the reality of "miracles"). Yet there are other philosophies/belief systems to choose from, and the big contender (IMO) is idealism. To my mind, idealism permits anything in physical reality, based as it is on consciousness being the primary constituent of reality. With such a system, the question of "how" can be replaced with "why", and so psychology becomes an important ingredient for the study of psi phenomena.  


Fingers crossed that the glitch was temporary.

I was thinking more of the “observer” in quantum physics but it’s a long while since I was up to date on the subject lol. I may be confused.

As far as idealism is concerned I guess if the shoe fits...

I’m no philosopher.

I’m no philosopher.

Or, to quote a former friend of mine, "I make it up as I go along"