Hi Typoz - thank you, your comment beautiful sums up my own sentiments exactly! I was really struck by "describing some rather trivial and poverty-stricken concept of a God". Yes!
For me, the "spiritual search" or whatever you want to call it is an incredibly private thing. It is only natural to want to occasionally express our understandings on forums like these, but the "real" relationship is an inner thing, for me. I have no desire to convince anyone else of anything but merely wish to share my own essentially private understandings and experiences for the purposes of clarifying to my own self my thoughts, which I rarely get to share in "real life", and perhaps providing interesting avenues of information for like minded people. I find it a shame due to the sensitivity of the subject that people can so readily get upset by alternative viewpoints (going so far as to imply people like myself, who generally keep themselves to themselves, who merely consider models such as "super-psi" even just to themselves, are doing it, ironically, for ideological reasons or to deny specific "afterlife" models etc
) . Personally I find a sense of humour, not taking oneself too seriously, genuine open-mindedness, curiosity, appreciation of our essential unknowingness etc far more important and appealing qualities than what particular belief or ideology you hold. I am not a fan of assuming someone's inner mental state based purely on their belief or world-view set - it is undeniable "souls" like Richard Feynman, Albert Einstein etc, although dreaded scientists, were beautifully curious, open-minded, and arguably "spiritual" than many so called religious and spiritual folk? Hey, perhaps one day even someone who seriously considers the "super-psi" hypothesis could be considered to not be a nefarious ideologue sent by Satan to disenchant humanity?
Point being, on a private, personal level, I too am struck by the "poverty-stricken" concept of some folks conception of "God", the "afterlife" etc. We throw words & concepts around about these subjects as if they could even begin to capture the literally mind-blowing (or transcending) ultimate nature of reality, creation, consciousness and "God" itself - even though all they appear to me is as hyper-inflated anthropocentric wish fulfilment, quite often at least. Personally, I would be so disappointed if some of these models are true.......I've had far more mind-blowing, incomprehensible, magical, mysterious etc experiences whilst alive! (though I couldn't be sure they were any more full of love, grace, compassion etc, it is the conceptual narratives & cosmologies I'm talking about). This is just my own experience and thoughts, but I must confess I really haven't got a clue, I cannot pretend to be smart enough to understand the mystery of all creation based purely on my interpretation of my own experiences, those of others and other related conceptual knowledge.
Hi E. Flowers! thought provoking point which I've also considered myself. I have some ideas and thoughts on the subject, but they are probably too esoteric and not rigorously enough grounded in scientific or academic terminology to be of any value here. But yes, you make an excellent point....
Hi Nbtruthman! Thanks for your reply:
I have to be honest, I realise and have already felt the consequences of sharing my opinion, and perhaps it was mischievous of me to have even bothered responding in the first place as the response was entirely predictable....I have no real desire to continue this or any related discussions here. I far prefer just staying silent and reading the most wonderful and informative discussions and links that are posted here!
Suffice to say, these "other experiences and phenomena" are spontaneous mystic experiencers such as deeper, non-dual NDErs, yogis, religious mystics etc throughout history (really my niche subject!), UFO and abductee experiencers, poltergeist experiencers, psychics and mediums who do not claim to speak to dead spirits etc etc.
And yes, absolutely without question do they "form internally coherent life-changing narratives like deep NDEs". In fact, I would argue in the case of some structured spiritual or mystical schools, the effects are far deeper and life-changing...kinda obviously, some of these schools are essentially generating "NDEs" at will, and daily. I can appreciate this would be hard to swallow for those unfamiliar with these spiritual practices, technologies and experiences.
Basically, I think I'll leave this discussion with a wonderfully synchronistic article I just read a few minutes ago - I feel it is a perfect rebuttal to both the points you and Raimo made. See if you can spot the mischievousness
The report by John Hopkins University, published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology, concluded that the NDE experience was one of the most “personally meaningful, spiritually significant, or psychologically insightful” of people’s lives.
NDEs appears to have the ability to permanently alter a person’s outlook on life. 90 per cent of respondents in the study reported improved life satisfaction and wellbeing after having the NDE, while 80 per cent said they found meaning and purpose. More than half of those who identified as atheist before the experience no longer did afterwards.
“I’ve been dealing with depression for as long as I can remember but during the NDE I felt like my mind was free.” During her NDE, Martha – who was raised Roman Catholic – says she remembers sitting outside at 1AM and “looking up at the night sky, transfixed by the vastness of everything”. After her experience, as well as finding her insomnia had improved and her overall mood had lifted, Martha felt a connection to a different kind of religion.
“With my NDE I felt like I was really seeing the world,” she explains. “For the first time, I was thinking outside myself. That experience made me appreciate life more. I think that’s what God is, seeing something outside of yourself – it’s selfless.”
During his NDE, 24-year-old Alex says he “shot up into this spiritual realm”. Describing the NDE, he explains: “I was inside this cathedral of yellow and orange energy, and felt an intense peacefulness and awe. I saw this group of people looking at me as if they were expecting me, but they didn’t say anything. I slowly came back down into my body. I felt a lingering sensation from my third eye and my spine for 30 minutes, as if I had activated my pineal gland.”
A study released in April 2019, also conducted by John Hopkins University, highlighted the profound, life-affirming effects of NDEs. “Experiences that people describe as encounters with God or a representative of God have been reported for thousands of years,” Roland Griffiths, the study’s lead researcher, said at the time. “Although modern Western medicine doesn’t typically consider ‘spiritual’ or ‘religious’ experiences as one of the tools in the arsenal against sickness, our findings suggest that these encounters often lead to improvements in mental health.”
In recent years, scientists have been discovering the benefits of NDEs, which have the capacity to relieve symptoms of anxiety and PTSD, as well as untreatable depression. Research which emerged this year found that just one NDE can reduce depression for as long as five years.
“My life has 100 per cent improved since I had my NDE,” says Gemma. “Looking back, I was lost, I didn’t know what I wanted out of life. (the NDEs) make you question the narrative you’ve been given, and whether your thoughts, opinions, and actions are your own, which changed my subjectivity and burst open my mind. Without this, I would never have even considered God as an option.”
Martha agrees. “From my experiences, I’d say my life has changed in the sense that I realised I have to be kinder to myself and take time to pause in the moment,” she explains, adding that her journey with her NDE is “just beginning” and that she wants “to see more”.
“I always find something profound through these experiences,” Alex adds, “and I’m always on the search to deepen my understanding of myself, the world, and this journey we call life.”
3ION describes his NDE as “therapeutic”, explaining that it made him feel “more at one with the higher power”. “Rather than making me feel like someone was judging my actions, I began to feel like I am loved unconditionally. I believed in a creator, but my idea of its attributes were skewed,” he says. Now I feel like God is my mother, God is earth, God is the universe, God is multidimensional.”
https://www.dazeddigital.com/life-cultur...lics-drugs
(This post was last modified: 2020-07-08, 02:14 PM by manjit.)
For me, the "spiritual search" or whatever you want to call it is an incredibly private thing. It is only natural to want to occasionally express our understandings on forums like these, but the "real" relationship is an inner thing, for me. I have no desire to convince anyone else of anything but merely wish to share my own essentially private understandings and experiences for the purposes of clarifying to my own self my thoughts, which I rarely get to share in "real life", and perhaps providing interesting avenues of information for like minded people. I find it a shame due to the sensitivity of the subject that people can so readily get upset by alternative viewpoints (going so far as to imply people like myself, who generally keep themselves to themselves, who merely consider models such as "super-psi" even just to themselves, are doing it, ironically, for ideological reasons or to deny specific "afterlife" models etc
) . Personally I find a sense of humour, not taking oneself too seriously, genuine open-mindedness, curiosity, appreciation of our essential unknowingness etc far more important and appealing qualities than what particular belief or ideology you hold. I am not a fan of assuming someone's inner mental state based purely on their belief or world-view set - it is undeniable "souls" like Richard Feynman, Albert Einstein etc, although dreaded scientists, were beautifully curious, open-minded, and arguably "spiritual" than many so called religious and spiritual folk? Hey, perhaps one day even someone who seriously considers the "super-psi" hypothesis could be considered to not be a nefarious ideologue sent by Satan to disenchant humanity?Point being, on a private, personal level, I too am struck by the "poverty-stricken" concept of some folks conception of "God", the "afterlife" etc. We throw words & concepts around about these subjects as if they could even begin to capture the literally mind-blowing (or transcending) ultimate nature of reality, creation, consciousness and "God" itself - even though all they appear to me is as hyper-inflated anthropocentric wish fulfilment, quite often at least. Personally, I would be so disappointed if some of these models are true.......I've had far more mind-blowing, incomprehensible, magical, mysterious etc experiences whilst alive! (though I couldn't be sure they were any more full of love, grace, compassion etc, it is the conceptual narratives & cosmologies I'm talking about). This is just my own experience and thoughts, but I must confess I really haven't got a clue, I cannot pretend to be smart enough to understand the mystery of all creation based purely on my interpretation of my own experiences, those of others and other related conceptual knowledge.
Hi E. Flowers! thought provoking point which I've also considered myself. I have some ideas and thoughts on the subject, but they are probably too esoteric and not rigorously enough grounded in scientific or academic terminology to be of any value here. But yes, you make an excellent point....
Hi Nbtruthman! Thanks for your reply:
Quote:I'm curious. Please detail what these "other experiences and phenomena" are. And are there any that form internally coherent life-changing narratives like deep NDEs? Any that are as ubiquitous in the population as NDEs? And is it likely that any deep NDEer will seriously consider that his experience was probably something fundamentally else than what it seemed to be? It's good to speculate and intellectualize, but personal intense experience can be extremely convincing at a deep level.
I have to be honest, I realise and have already felt the consequences of sharing my opinion, and perhaps it was mischievous of me to have even bothered responding in the first place as the response was entirely predictable....I have no real desire to continue this or any related discussions here. I far prefer just staying silent and reading the most wonderful and informative discussions and links that are posted here!
Suffice to say, these "other experiences and phenomena" are spontaneous mystic experiencers such as deeper, non-dual NDErs, yogis, religious mystics etc throughout history (really my niche subject!), UFO and abductee experiencers, poltergeist experiencers, psychics and mediums who do not claim to speak to dead spirits etc etc.
And yes, absolutely without question do they "form internally coherent life-changing narratives like deep NDEs". In fact, I would argue in the case of some structured spiritual or mystical schools, the effects are far deeper and life-changing...kinda obviously, some of these schools are essentially generating "NDEs" at will, and daily. I can appreciate this would be hard to swallow for those unfamiliar with these spiritual practices, technologies and experiences.
Basically, I think I'll leave this discussion with a wonderfully synchronistic article I just read a few minutes ago - I feel it is a perfect rebuttal to both the points you and Raimo made. See if you can spot the mischievousness
The report by John Hopkins University, published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology, concluded that the NDE experience was one of the most “personally meaningful, spiritually significant, or psychologically insightful” of people’s lives.
NDEs appears to have the ability to permanently alter a person’s outlook on life. 90 per cent of respondents in the study reported improved life satisfaction and wellbeing after having the NDE, while 80 per cent said they found meaning and purpose. More than half of those who identified as atheist before the experience no longer did afterwards.
“I’ve been dealing with depression for as long as I can remember but during the NDE I felt like my mind was free.” During her NDE, Martha – who was raised Roman Catholic – says she remembers sitting outside at 1AM and “looking up at the night sky, transfixed by the vastness of everything”. After her experience, as well as finding her insomnia had improved and her overall mood had lifted, Martha felt a connection to a different kind of religion.
“With my NDE I felt like I was really seeing the world,” she explains. “For the first time, I was thinking outside myself. That experience made me appreciate life more. I think that’s what God is, seeing something outside of yourself – it’s selfless.”
During his NDE, 24-year-old Alex says he “shot up into this spiritual realm”. Describing the NDE, he explains: “I was inside this cathedral of yellow and orange energy, and felt an intense peacefulness and awe. I saw this group of people looking at me as if they were expecting me, but they didn’t say anything. I slowly came back down into my body. I felt a lingering sensation from my third eye and my spine for 30 minutes, as if I had activated my pineal gland.”
A study released in April 2019, also conducted by John Hopkins University, highlighted the profound, life-affirming effects of NDEs. “Experiences that people describe as encounters with God or a representative of God have been reported for thousands of years,” Roland Griffiths, the study’s lead researcher, said at the time. “Although modern Western medicine doesn’t typically consider ‘spiritual’ or ‘religious’ experiences as one of the tools in the arsenal against sickness, our findings suggest that these encounters often lead to improvements in mental health.”
In recent years, scientists have been discovering the benefits of NDEs, which have the capacity to relieve symptoms of anxiety and PTSD, as well as untreatable depression. Research which emerged this year found that just one NDE can reduce depression for as long as five years.
“My life has 100 per cent improved since I had my NDE,” says Gemma. “Looking back, I was lost, I didn’t know what I wanted out of life. (the NDEs) make you question the narrative you’ve been given, and whether your thoughts, opinions, and actions are your own, which changed my subjectivity and burst open my mind. Without this, I would never have even considered God as an option.”
Martha agrees. “From my experiences, I’d say my life has changed in the sense that I realised I have to be kinder to myself and take time to pause in the moment,” she explains, adding that her journey with her NDE is “just beginning” and that she wants “to see more”.
“I always find something profound through these experiences,” Alex adds, “and I’m always on the search to deepen my understanding of myself, the world, and this journey we call life.”
3ION describes his NDE as “therapeutic”, explaining that it made him feel “more at one with the higher power”. “Rather than making me feel like someone was judging my actions, I began to feel like I am loved unconditionally. I believed in a creator, but my idea of its attributes were skewed,” he says. Now I feel like God is my mother, God is earth, God is the universe, God is multidimensional.”
https://www.dazeddigital.com/life-cultur...lics-drugs
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