Debunk my experience

The brains were not dead. For assuming only one personally desirable conclusion it's you whom is doing the clutching.

FYI, you are correct. The patients were all under do not resuscitate orders, but none were brain dead. One patient only had deliberately induced electro cerebral silence with thiopental. What they had in common was that they were already undergoing intracranial (within the cranium) monitoring for various reasons, prior to the DNR decision. So for the purposes of this study, that monitoring was continued once the decision to withdraw aggressive care had been made (that is what the families consented to). Otherwise, the monitoring would have been discontinued.

Linda

[Ninshub]

@Steve: I've deleted your last two posts because you're posting the same response quoting the same quote. Possibly you're encountering a technical difficulty?

Yeah, not gonna lie, once veridical OBE's and SDE's get involved the pure neuroscience explanations just fall apart.

I agree. I think we should work on finding a way to document veridical OBEs. The AWARE study attempts this with hidden targets, but I'm not sure anybody thinks that's going to work. Sartori had numerous patients who were in position to see her hidden targets, and none did. She even had one patient who had multiple OBEs, and once he heard about the hidden targets, he deliberately tried to spot them in his subsequent OBEs and was unsuccessful.

I don't think anybody has done, or is planning to do, any of the prospective documentation which Sartori managed, let alone publishing them. (For example, weeks/months (I think it was a year before Parnia contacted his lauded veridical case) lapsed before Parnia interviewed his subjects - long after feedback and information had been given to the subjects. And he did not publish transcripts of the interviews.) This is a shame, since even one documented veridical OBE should have the power to get neuroscientists' attention. Maybe. 

Linda

I agree. I think we should work on finding a way to document veridical OBEs. The AWARE study attempts this with hidden targets, but I'm not sure anybody thinks that's going to work. Sartori had numerous patients who were in position to see her hidden targets, and none did. She even had one patient who had multiple OBEs, and once he heard about the hidden targets, he deliberately tried to spot them in his subsequent OBEs and was unsuccessful.

I don't think anybody has done, or is planning to do, any of the prospective documentation which Sartori managed, let alone publishing them. (For example, weeks/months (I think it was a year before Parnia contacted his lauded veridical case) lapsed before Parnia interviewed his subjects - long after feedback and information had been given to the subjects. And he did not publish transcripts of the interviews.) This is a shame, since even one documented veridical OBE should have the power to get neuroscientists' attention. Maybe. 

Linda

Can you tell me which patient this was ?

FYI, you are correct. The patients were all under do not resuscitate orders, but none were brain dead. One patient only had deliberately induced electro cerebral silence with thiopental. What they had in common was that they were already undergoing intracranial (within the cranium) monitoring for various reasons, prior to the DNR decision. So for the purposes of this study, that monitoring was continued once the decision to withdraw aggressive care had been made (that is what the families consented to). Otherwise, the monitoring would have been discontinued.

Linda

No, he is not correct. From the paper :

To investigate this in the human brain, we performed recordings with either subdural electrode strips (n = 4) or intraparenchymal electrode arrays (n = 5) in patients with devastating brain injury that resulted in activation of a Do Not Resuscitate–Comfort Care order followed by terminal extubation

You ought to know that, you claim to be a doctor but you've been posting on message boards many hours a day for twenty years or so I don't think you've had much time for your (imaginary) patients. Personally, I think you're a disingenuous troll.

I'm not a doctor but I know that doctors describe patients with devastating brain injuries as brain dead.

[Ninshub]

She even had one patient who had multiple OBEs, and once he heard about the hidden targets, he deliberately tried to spot them in his subsequent OBEs and was unsuccessful.

This is the part that Tim bolded. I'm curious as to what's the source for this claim?

This is the part that Tim bolded. I'm curious as to what's the source for this claim?

Unless I'm seriously forgetting something, Linda's claim is erroneous. Patient 10, as I recall, if that is who she is referring to, provided Sartori's best case... and it was very accurate. What he said was that "If I had known about the hidden target image, I would have looked out for it...but I didn't twist my head round that way, Penny, sorry. (summary)

I don't recall Sartori describing any other male who had multiple OBE's. If I'm wrong, I'll apologise.

This is the part that Tim bolded. I'm curious as to what's the source for this claim?

From her report on her study:
https://www.amazon.com/Near-death-Experi...56&sr=1-11

Patient 17:

"The patient had frequent spontaneous OBEs during trance-like states that were observable by myself and other members of staff....I explained the research to him and pointed out where the symbols were hidden and asked him to look at them if he had another experience like that. The man had several more episodes during one of which  I was present and stood before him and pointed to the symbols and asked him to look at them. The man didn't see any of the symbols because he claimed to have 'floated' to the middle of the room opposite to where the symbols were situated."

Linda

I've said this before about this type of debate but perhaps it is worth another mention. We tend to get hung up on objective evidence. We expect that whatever a person sees during an OBE must be the same as he/she would see in the physical state of day-to-day waking life. I suspect that this is not the case and that subjectivity has a far greater influence upon what that person might see and/or remember. For example, I read about one NDE (can't remember where or when, unfortunately) during which the person moved through the structure of the building and as he passed through walls, saw the building materials, cables and wall cavities, etc. Others just describe "going up through the ceiling" without mention of such details because, I suspect, they don't see them. 

Why should we expect to see precisely what we might see in a physical state? Again, I have mentioned this previously and again it bears repeating: Jurgen Ziewe and his brother decided to test this kind of objective observation during an OBE. A note pinned to a wall was the object to look for. Ziewe describes it thus:

It is worth pointing out that while getting more confident I sought ways of confirming the reality of these experiences. To do this I asked my brother in Germany to pin a word on his wall, which I would read when projecting to the house next time and then confirm it via phone. A few nights went buy and then I succeeded in leaving my body. As I projected into his room I was confused by the large number of notices stuck to his wall. I couldn’t focus clearly on many of them, but one stood out and it read:

"4 o’clock, Thursday, take car to MOT”

I phoned my brother the following day and he told that he had only pinned one word to the wall and it read simply “love”. However, he told me that he had a note in his diary to have his car checked in for an MOT that following Thursday, at 4 o’clock.

So did he travel to the actual room? Did he see the room as he might have had he been physical? Seems not. It seems that there is some subjectivity at play here and that he did "see" accurate information but not the desired target. I can't explain the overlap between subjective and objective experiences while not in the physical, but it looks like the usual rules don't entirely apply.