Debunk my experience

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From her report on her study:
https://www.amazon.com/Near-death-Experi...56&sr=1-11

Patient 17:

"The patient had frequent spontaneous OBEs during trance-like states that were observable by myself and other members of staff....I explained the research to him and pointed out where the symbols were hidden and asked him to look at them if he had another experience like that. The man had several more episodes during one of which  I was present and stood before him and pointed to the symbols and asked him to look at them. The man didn't see any of the symbols because he claimed to have 'floated' to the middle of the room opposite to where the symbols were situated."

Linda

Thanks.

Although it's not clear from this quote that he "deliberately" tried to spot them, or what his intentional state was during those subsequent episodes.

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Unless I'm seriously forgetting something, Linda's claim is erroneous. Patient 10, as I recall, if that is who she is referring to, provided Sartori's best case... and it was very accurate. What he said was that "If I had known about the hidden target image, I would have looked out for it...but I didn't twist my head round that way, Penny, sorry. (summary)

I don't recall Sartori describing any other male who had multiple OBE's. If I'm wrong, I'll apologise.

I guess that's the patient that's described by her here:

There were two patients who reported an OBE where they were high enough and in the correct location to view the symbols but they were not looking on the top of the monitor. One of those patients remarked that if he knew before his OBE that there was a hidden symbol there he would have looked at it and told me what it was.

https://drpennysartori.wordpress.com/201...-research/

From her report on her study:
https://www.amazon.com/Near-death-Experi...56&sr=1-11

Patient 17:

"The patient had frequent spontaneous OBEs during trance-like states that were observable by myself and other members of staff....I explained the research to him and pointed out where the symbols were hidden and asked him to look at them if he had another experience like that. The man had several more episodes during one of which  I was present and stood before him and pointed to the symbols and asked him to look at them. The man didn't see any of the symbols because he claimed to have 'floated' to the middle of the room opposite to where the symbols were situated."

Linda

I've just followed that link and it leads to an Amazon review : This is what it says....

The Near-Death Experiences (NDE) is well known from various books over the past several decades. Those who have experienced an NDE are often deeply transformed. They no longer fear death; they feel a clearer sense of purpose in life; and they often open into spiritual awarenesses - even when this had been uncharacteristic for them prior to their NDE. Skeptics have proposed numerous reductionistic explanations for the NDE. They have suggested that this is a wishful fantasy to deny the finality of death; drug-induced delirium; the product of oxygen starvation in a brain that is in a body which came close to death; and so on.

Penny Sartori, a nurse in an ITU in Wales in the UK has written a wonderfully thorough summary of her prospective study of patients who reported an NDE. Standardized NDE scales, an in-depth questionnaire, and a semi-structured interview provided details for a meticulous analysis of the NDE phenomena. The study focused on details of: 1. everyone released alive from the ITU from January to November, 1998 (243 people) who reported an NDE (0.8 percent); 2. Survivors over a five year period who had cardiac arrests (because these people had NDE experiences far more frequently (17.9 percent); and 3. Total sample with NDEs during the five year study period.

The discussions of the findings of this careful study are most thorough. Here are a few of the interesting items reported in this study. Few of the people in the ITU would have mentioned their NDE if they had not been asked. The reductionistic explanations were not supported by the evidence. For instance, neither drugs nor anoxia were found to correlate with NDE reports. The core elements of the NDE were validated. Perhaps of most importance in our death-denying, death avoidant society are the following observations:

Death is currently considered by many to be their greatest enemy. However, as a result of their experience, the two NDErs who reported the deepest NDEs in this study were absolutely certain that death was nothing to fear. They only considered death to be the end of their physical existence. The concept of life after death, however, seems too simplistic a notion as it will transcend all previous bodily experiences. It is therefore essential that we consider what NDEs can teach us about life. It appears that only when one considers death, does one stop and really consider life. If there is one thing I have learned since conducting this research, it is that here and now is important and that NDErs' spiritual insights have much to teach us all about life and how to live it.

Equally, the most important point to remember is that what occurs after the initial phases, as described by the NDEr, is beyond our comprehension and will remain a mystery until we all, one day, experience it in its entirety, at our own death. (p. 333)

For anyone interested in a thorough understanding of the NDE, this book is a must read.


Where is the mention of Patient 17 ?  If this patient actually reported what Linda is saying (and I don't remember reading it but I might be wrong) it isn't even in the category of what is defined as a near death experience. Peter Fenwick, who oversaw her study would not have been the slightest bit interested in such a report. The man was obviously awake.

I guess that's the patient that's described by her here:

There were two patients who reported an OBE where they were high enough and in the correct location to view the symbols but they were not looking on the top of the monitor. One of those patients remarked that if he knew before his OBE that there was a hidden symbol there he would have looked at it and told me what it was.

https://drpennysartori.wordpress.com/201...-research/

No, I don't think it is, Ian. One of those was patient 10 and I'm pretty sure the other was a woman. I'm going to contact Penny Sartori asap because Linda's BS is pissing me off

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I think Linda linked to the book but is using her own copy to provide the quote about patient 17. I don't have the book myself to read the context.

I think Linda linked to the book but is using her own copy to provide the quote about patient 17. I don't have the book myself to read the context.

Thanks, Ian. I ordered the book from the library and read it from cover to cover at least twice. It cost around £100, so I didn't buy it and I seriously doubt if Linda bought it because that £100 would have been possibly double in her part of the world. 

Such an experience (OBE during wakefulness or trance-like  state) would not have qualified as a near death experience but of course, has potential for other studies.

From IANDS :  Method

 All data collection, interviews, transcribing and data analysis were undertaken by the author.  Each patient interviewed was simply asked ‘Do you have any recollection of anything during the time that you were unconscious?’ 

If it was apparent that a patient had undergone a NDE or OBE they were interviewed in-depth once the research had been explained and their written consent obtained.  They were allowed free narrative of the experience and then completed The Greyson NDE Scale (Greyson 1983).  This was followed by an in-depth questionnaire based on that used by Ring (1980).  It was also evident that many patients had reported hallucinations.  Twelve of these cases were documented in order to contrast the differences between NDEs and hallucinations.  Drugs administered and the blood results taken at the time of the medical emergency were documented and later analysed.

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The price is also what kept me getting it. I seem to remember Linda from older discussions having the book.

The price is also what kept me getting it. I seem to remember Linda from older discussions having the book.

I seem to remember her not having it (Max, showed her up for misrepresenting facts more than once) but obviously we can't know (if she actually has it) I intend to get to the truth about what Penny's book actually said about this patient.

Thanks.

Although it's not clear from this quote that he "deliberately" tried to spot them, or what his intentional state was during those subsequent episodes.

I agree. My first comment was going off my memory, and I may have thought that a separate statement ("When I asked if he had viewed the symbol on the monitor he said that he did not know it was there, but if I had told him about it before he would have looked up there and seen it.") with respect to Patient 11, had applied to Patient 17.

Linda

I guess that's the patient that's described by her here:

There were two patients who reported an OBE where they were high enough and in the correct location to view the symbols but they were not looking on the top of the monitor. One of those patients remarked that if he knew before his OBE that there was a hidden symbol there he would have looked at it and told me what it was.

https://drpennysartori.wordpress.com/201...-research/

I think she is referring to Patient 10 and Patient 11 - Patient 11 made the statement she quotes, and Patient 10 reported seeing the top of the monitor (where the picture would have been placed), but did not see a picture. I don't think there was a specific report of Patient 17 seeing the top of the monitor (the transcript of his interview is not in the Appendix, afaict).

Linda