Death is the end

Dante, I started this thread to ask proponents a simple question, not really the other way round. I am not really interested in philosophical mumbo jumbo myself or answering questions about an afterlife, I do not believe in an afterlife, my position is non-belief so I choose to ask proponents the questions. The burden of proof is on you guys to provide the evidence for your beliefs not the other way round.

It is clear from mainstream science that there is no afterlife. Microbes, bacteria, insects dying in nature every second every minute, nobody seems to care about those. It is human bias from religion, a perverted anthropomorphic world-view to why certain humans believe in an afterlife. Proponents of this afterlife hypothesis fear death and erroneously believe they are 'important' or above nature and somehow and deserve a magical afterlife. I do not choose to discuss the pro and cons of 'afterlife' research, would be a futile task. I was more interested in how proponents would change if they came to realise there was no afterlife.

Tim for example stated " I don't see how humans could or would be able to complete their lives satisfactorily" if they know beyond doubt death is the end. I am trying to figure out why you guys believe this? Proponents seem to strongly bank on an afterlife existing. Their belief in it seems to shape what they do in the now. That is something I do not understand.

I cannot demonstrate this statement with evidence so this one is a speculation from me, but I believe one other possible reason people believe in an afterlife is because they have not achieved much in their life. In conclusion I bottle it down to several types of people who believe in an afterlife:

1. Those brainwashed by religion or anthropomorphic belief systems
2. Those who are unhappy, ill or have not achieved much with their lives
3. Elderly people who fear death

Do you agree with any of this?

1. Those brainwashed by religion or anthropomorphic belief systems
2. Those who are unhappy, ill or have not achieved much with their lives
3. Elderly people who fear death


Which one do I come under ?  LOL

Since belief is mentioned.

I don't belief in an afterlife any more than I believe in water.

Dante, I started this thread to ask proponents a simple question, not really the other way round. I am not really interested in philosophical mumbo jumbo myself or answering questions about an afterlife, I do not believe in an afterlife, my position is non-belief so I choose to ask proponents the questions. The burden of proof is on you guys to provide the evidence for your beliefs not the other way round.

It is clear from mainstream science that there is no afterlife. Microbes, bacteria, insects dying in nature every second every minute, nobody seems to care about those. It is human bias from religion, a perverted anthropomorphic world-view to why certain humans believe in an afterlife. Proponents of this afterlife hypothesis fear death and erroneously believe they are 'important' or above nature and somehow and deserve a magical afterlife. I do not choose to discuss the pro and cons of 'afterlife' research, would be a futile task. I was more interested in how proponents would change if they came to realise there was no afterlife.

Tim for example stated " I don't see how humans could or would be able to complete their lives satisfactorily" if they know beyond doubt death is the end. I am trying to figure out why you guys believe this? Proponents seem to strongly bank on an afterlife existing. Their belief in it seems to shape what they do in the now. That is something I do not understand.

I cannot demonstrate this statement with evidence so this one is a speculation from me, but I believe one other possible reason people believe in an afterlife is because they have not achieved much in their life. In conclusion I bottle it down to several types of people who believe in an afterlife:

1. Those brainwashed by religion or anthropomorphic belief systems
2. Those who are unhappy, ill or have not achieved much with their lives
3. Elderly people who fear death

Do you agree with any of this?

Leuders said "Tim for example stated " I don't see how humans could or would be able to complete their lives satisfactorily" if they know beyond doubt death is the end. I am trying to figure out why you guys believe this? Proponents seem to strongly bank on an afterlife existing. Their belief in it seems to shape what they do in the now. That is something I do not understand.

Have you ever spoken to anyone who has died ie been brought back from cardiac arrest after many minutes, Leuders ?
I have many times. Have you studied the literature, not just NDE's but reincarnation, death bed visions, mediumship
of all kinds, crisis apparitions ?  

Human beings who believe death is the end, tend to grow stiff (no pun intended) and fearful as they get to what they "know" is the end of them.  It's just a well known observable fact, it doesn't mean that is the reason why you should believe in an afterlife though.
Personally, I believe it for three reasons. My own memories (which I don't want to go into). Evidence from the literature and the evidence of my own eyes. The large scale rejection of the idea of an afterlife became popular with the critical scientific  rationalism of the 20th century but before that things were rather different.

My Grandma, for instance believed wholeheartedly in it (life after death) and so did the majority of the people who lived in her street (a poverty stricken terrace). Why ? They knew it was true, just a fact of life....or death, more accurately.
 
My uncle (believe it or not) was killed in the first world war (yes the first) and he "appeared" at the foot of my Grandma's next door neighbour's bed... and asked her to tell my Grandma (his mother) that he had died, which she did the next day. The telegram confirming his death arrived about a week later. What's more this was a very common occurrence during that period (as there were more than 1000,000 deaths) and no one thought there was anything special about it.

It doesn't take too many reports like that before one realises that critical rationalism is wrong.

Human beings who believe death is the end, tend to grow stiff (no pun intended)

LOL 

Since belief is mentioned.

I don't belief in an afterlife any more than I believe in water.

Water is empirical... an afterlife is not.

Leuders said "Tim for example stated " I don't see how humans could or would be able to complete their lives satisfactorily" if they know beyond doubt death is the end. I am trying to figure out why you guys believe this? Proponents seem to strongly bank on an afterlife existing. Their belief in it seems to shape what they do in the now. That is something I do not understand.

Have you ever spoken to anyone who has died ie been brought back from cardiac arrest after many minutes, Leuders ?
I have many times. Have you studied the literature, not just NDE's but reincarnation, death bed visions, mediumship
of all kinds, crisis apparitions ?  

Human beings who believe death is the end, tend to grow stiff (no pun intended) and fearful as they get to what they "know" is the end of them.  It's just a well known observable fact, it doesn't mean that is the reason why you should believe in an afterlife though.
Personally, I believe it for three reasons. My own memories (which I don't want to go into). Evidence from the literature and the evidence of my own eyes. The large scale rejection of the idea of an afterlife became popular with the critical scientific  rationalism of the 20th century but before that things were rather different.

My Grandma, for instance believed wholeheartedly in it (life after death) and so did the majority of the people who lived in her street (a poverty stricken terrace). Why ? They knew it was true, just a fact of life....or death, more accurately.
 
My uncle (believe it or not) was killed in the first world war (yes the first) and he "appeared" at the foot of my Grandma's next door neighbour's bed... and asked her to tell my Grandma (his mother) that he had died, which she did the next day. The telegram confirming his death arrived about a week later. What's more this was a very common occurrence during that period (as there were more than 1000,000 deaths) and no one thought there was anything special about it.

It doesn't take too many reports like that before one realises that critical rationalism is wrong.

Tim I an unhappy with life... would be nice if an afterlife existed! I would love to be on board. But I will not fall into the trap of wishful thinking.

I am not convinced by anecdotal evidence which you cite, they are just subjective stories. I guess we could create another thread discussing supposed evidence for an afterlife (pro and con). Like yourself I have read a lot. No I have not chatted with anyone who has experienced such things via cardiac arrest. I read a book by a guy and he said he experienced nothing. Does the idea of an eternal oblivion scare you?

Forgive me for commenting here as I am new but I am pretty sure Leuders is a rationalwiki editor, he has written 'hit-pieces' on various parapsychologists. Some of these parapsychologists I greatly admire but he has written smears about them on this (I)rationalwiki piece of garbage website. He is nothing more than a pseudoskeptic. Why is he not banned from this forum?

Maybe the mods could check that out, Mac.

Tim I an unhappy with life... would be nice if an afterlife existed! I would love to be on board. But I will not fall into the trap of wishful thinking.

I am not convinced by anecdotal evidence which you cite, they are just subjective stories. I guess we could create another thread discussing supposed evidence for an afterlife (pro and con). Like yourself I have read a lot. No I have not chatted with anyone who has experienced such things via cardiac arrest. I read a book by a guy and he said he experienced nothing. Does the idea of an eternal oblivion scare you?

"Tim I an unhappy with life... would be nice if an afterlife existed! I would love to be on board. But I will not fall into the trap of wishful thinking"

What's wishful thinking got to do with it. I might just as well address that to you. If you'd read the literature you would know that wishful thinking doesn't come into it. People who don't want NDE's have them and visa versa. You'll have to do better than that, Leuders.  

As for the old "it's just an anecdote excuse" (sceptical excuse number ???)  that used to be the case decades ago but serious discussion has moved beyond that. And no, the idea of oblivion doesn't scare me, only the manner in which it would arrive, if it were true. But I'm certain it's not..and if I'm wrong I'll never know.

Concepts such as wishful thinking are irrelevant. Wishful thinking doesn't make air appear or disappear.