Consciousness during CPR

What videos though?

I think this is the first one that I tried. It is rather short, more of a taster than an in-depth regression.

Brian Weiss  Past-Life Regression Session

There are more suggestions/recommendations in this thread:
Which self-regression video works for you?

Each of us is different, so it is probably worth trying one or more of those.

Please don't lump me into a position I haven't spoken in support of. My only concern with my prior posting is that the evidence has been misrepresented in regards to flatlining.

But it hasn't been misrepresented ! In cardiac arrest, blood (still) stops flowing into the brain and the brainwaves disappear after 10-20 seconds. That is still a fact. Parnia is talking about prolonged CPR producing some alpha waves in a couple of cases. The vast majority 80% had no brainwaves. 10% had discharges and seizures.

You can't just conclude that the one(s) that had some alpha waves were the ones who had an NDE and then say BINGO...
there's your explanation, NDE's debunked ! It's nonsense ! Only desperate pseudo sceptics (you're not one) automatically draw conclusions like that.

We can't draw any conclusions from Parnia's poster because he hasn't given us enough information to do so. We still have numerous veridical out of body experiences where the patient was receiving no CPR.

I keep pointing this out, but these alpha waves seem to taking on a life of their own. Kindly explain to me how giving someone  some alpha brainwaves allows them to observe the scene of their resuscitation, when their eyes are closed and they are lying flat out with their face upwards ?

Given the questionable tactics skeptics have employed in the past I'd have trouble accepting their reports - do they have proof of what the third
party persons were saying?

That said I don't think Eben Alexander's NDE is that great of a data point compared to the larger variety of cases.




Do you have a recommended service - I have thought about this, even considered paying for my twin, to see if we end up with an overlap in past lives.

Eben Alexander's NDE case is not a great data point but sure be famous, if i havent read Eben Nde, ill never know about thing call Nde

I think this is the poster from Parnia which has been referenced showing that there is relevant cerebral activity in some cases of cardiac arrest, during CPR.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/...uppl_2.287

"there are periods of normal/near-normal cortical activity despite prolonged CPR >45-60 mins"

Linda

I think this is the poster from Parnia which has been referenced showing that there is relevant cerebral activity in some cases of cardiac arrest, during CPR.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/...uppl_2.287

"there are periods of normal/near-normal cortical activity despite prolonged CPR >45-60 mins"

Linda

well I think this poster basically makes the same connection between cpr and consciousness during cpr  as was made in the related article in the OP. Parnia et al. “
A minimal threshold of brain oxygen delivery (rSO2>30%) may be required for cortical activity. These data raise questions regarding assumptions of irreversible brain damage with prolonged CPR, as well as the possibility of consciousness and cognitive activity during CPR.“

In my opinion NDEs are significantly demystified at this point. I’m reminded how often NDE proponents have made the exact opposite point regarding cortical activity.

From van Lommel’s study abstract:

“...Significantly more patients who had an NDE, especially a deep experience, died within 30 days of CPR (p<0·0001)...”

I just reread van Lommel’s article. This excerpt strikes me as an enourmously biased conclusion from very few datapoints. The most concerning part is however the relatively high frequency of NDEs compared to e.g the AWARE I study. The article admits itself there seems to be biases in the reporting. Still even this bias can’t account for the huge discrepancy we are seeing.

well I think this poster basically makes the same connection between cpr and consciousness during cpr  as was made in the related article in the OP. Parnia et al. “
A minimal threshold of brain oxygen delivery (rSO2>30%) may be required for cortical activity. These data raise questions regarding assumptions of irreversible brain damage with prolonged CPR, as well as the possibility of consciousness and cognitive activity during CPR.“

In my opinion NDEs are significantly demystified at this point. I’m reminded how often NDE proponents have made the exact opposite point regarding cortical activity.

In my opinion NDEs are significantly demystified at this point. I’m reminded how often NDE proponents have made the exact opposite point regarding cortical activity.

If you are going to make statements like that, Sbu, you're going to have to back them up. These are the facts about Parnia's poster.

1. A small percentage of patients (was it about 5%?) were noted to have some alpha waves during prolonged CPR

2. These were measured by placing a monitor on the patient's forehead (or further up) during breaks in CPR according to Parnia's video presentation. If there was any movement of the patient's head during the brief measurement period then that could produce a false reading (correct me if that's wrong, but one of Parnia's colleagues asked about this). In other words, the waves could be an artifact. But they might not be., of course

3. Parnia hasn't told us if the alpha waves overlap the reported NDE's. You are assuming they do. Why ?

3. The study hasn't been completed. Let the experts analyse it before drawing conclusions.

4. Even if the alpha waves overlap/coincide perfectly with the NDE's, it could only potentially explain some of the features of NDE. It cannot explain all the features, particularly observations out of the potential range of the patient even when their eyes were open. If you want to assume or pretend that it does, then you are kidding yourself and that's not sound scepticism. 

5. We have many OBE's/NDE's on the record where no CPR was involved although deep NDE's were reported.
Al Sullivan. Pam Reynolds. Denture man. Lloyd Rudy's patient. Michaela Rosa. Monica Williams. The list is long.

Just take Al Sullivan, that's enough to make the point, surely.  Keep your new 'weapon'...CPR induced brainwaves... handy. Al was under general anaesthesia, undergoing open heart surgery and was isolated behind a raised drape to block any potential view of the operation or the medical personnel doing their work.

He saw the surgeon flapping his arms, amongst other important details such as seeing his leg cut open (to provide a vein for the by-pass). 

Could you specifically explain how some alpha brainwaves (which he would certainly not have had) explains this case ?  I'm (personally) getting pissed off with what I consider just plain opportunism without any reason other than...well it sounds plausible and Linda (who is not an honest sceptic) is pushing it, so I may as well weigh in my two cents.

If you can't, then would you please stop repeating the same claim that NDE's have been (significantly) demystified. They haven't. Not even close. 

I don't see Parnia and his colleagues abandoning the study. If they thought that some alpha waves in a couple of patients  had explained the mystery, why on earth are they continuing ?

I just reread van Lommel’s article. This excerpt strikes me as an enourmously biased conclusion from very few datapoints. The most concerning part is however the relatively high frequency of NDEs compared to e.g the AWARE I study. The article admits itself there seems to be biases in the reporting. Still even this bias can’t account for the huge discrepancy we are seeing.

As I understand it (might be wrong) there was a probability factor of 1 in a thousand or maybe it was 1 in ten thousand (can't remember exactly) that the patients who reported a very deep NDE would die within 30 days.

Van Lommel didn't know (scientifically why) but it was suggestive that those patients were not at all afraid of death and wanted to go, as odd as that might seem. Nothing to do with bias.

The most concerning part is however the relatively high frequency of NDEs compared to e.g the AWARE I study. The article admits itself there seems to be biases in the reporting. Still even this bias can’t account for the huge discrepancy we are seeing.

The reason for the discrepancy is that the Lancet article uses a different scale, and counts experiences which would not be considered NDEs as "superficial NDEs".

Van Lommel et. al. used the Weighted Core Experience Index, and counted any recollected experiences as NDEs, regardless of whether they consisted of what we think of as "NDEs" - i.e. WCEI scores of 1-5. Ring, when developing that scale, used a cut-off of 6 for NDEs. The Greyson scale cuts off experiences which score below 7, which compares with below 5 on the WCEI (https://www.researchgate.net/publication...d_validity).

Van Lommel et. al. included the non-NDEs in their NDE total. Of note, these non-NDEers (what van Lommel refers to as "superficial NDEs") underwent the same transformation that the NDEers underwent. This also demonstrates that NDEs are not uniquely transformational experiences, either.

"The 13 patients who had superficial NDE underwent the same specific transformational changes as those who had a core experience."

Linda