Commentary thread for tim's "NDE's" thread

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Nice account, Tim. Especially since the experiencer has reason to doubt on two fronts: his natural skepticism and his catholic background. So there's none of the typical American religious hype about heaven and Jesus - just a matter of fact telling with valid questions and reflections.

Nice account, Tim. Especially since the experiencer has reason to doubt on two fronts: his natural skepticism and his catholic background. So there's none of the typical American religious hype about heaven and Jesus - just a matter of fact telling with valid questions and reflections.

Thanks, Dave. Good points ! One of the reasons why I posted it was because of his observation of the nameplate on the "machine." Replace that nameplate for Parnia's computer tablet (up on a pole) and that's curtains for materialism. For me, they are already drawn (or opened)  but I don't pretend to be a sceptic with regard to veridical NDE's.

I'm still pondering over the relationship between the subjective and the objective in such cases. For example, in the OBE stage, certain things seem objectively verifiable - like the false teeth story or the tennis shoes. Yet others seem to be subjective and influenced by the beliefs and expectations of the experiencer. For example, some see Jesus while others see a parent; some see glowing light-beings while others feel a presence in the light. In the case above, Alois mentions floating above his own funeral - clearly not objective because he survived. So a subjective scene to show him something he might have needed to see? 

Obviously, a skeptic would immediately claim that shows it was all a hallucination but we know that these experiences are of an entirely different quality to hallucinations and are, indeed, often more real than real. Quite ordered and seared into the memory for life. Also, again, there are verifiable objective aspects which can't have been imagined.

I thought that 'nameplate' story was a great experience to post up Tim. But if it's realtime, secret, and hidden on a pole and can't be seen... it won't get seen.

There is a reason apparitions of Roman soldiers were seen to walk directly on a small, temporarily excavated section of roman road, in the cellar of Treasurers House in York, whilst the bottom part of their legs remained hidden by the unexcavated dirt in other areas.

It has something vital to do with the way information must be accessed, processed and stored. And at a fundamental level, can't really be much different to writing a things-to-do list on a piece of paper, to jog your memory when you look at the list again.

Hi, Max

The nameplate was hidden and couldn't be seen (apparently). It was seen by the patient in real time. I don't know what the explanation is for the apparitions of Roman soldiers walking on the original level of ground which is now some distance below the surface.

I'm still pondering over the relationship between the subjective and the objective in such cases. For example, in the OBE stage, certain things seem objectively verifiable - like the false teeth story or the tennis shoes. Yet others seem to be subjective and influenced by the beliefs and expectations of the experiencer. For example, some see Jesus while others see a parent; some see glowing light-beings while others feel a presence in the light. In the case above, Alois mentions floating above his own funeral - clearly not objective because he survived. So a subjective scene to show him something he might have needed to see? 

Obviously, a skeptic would immediately claim that shows it was all a hallucination but we know that these experiences are of an entirely different quality to hallucinations and are, indeed, often more real than real. Quite ordered and seared into the memory for life. Also, again, there are verifiable objective aspects which can't have been imagined.

"For example, in the OBE stage, certain things seem objectively verifiable - like the false teeth story or the tennis shoes. Yet others seem to be subjective and influenced by the beliefs and expectations of the experiencer"

I've read several cases where the person has had a glimpse of their own funeral during NDE's. Perhaps in this disembodied condition they (actually do) have the ability to see into the future (they certainly claim that)  just as they quite often report seeing future spouses for instance and future events.

If that man has seen that nameplate though, then the rest of it and the mechanics of how and why, don't really matter so much IMHO.

"In the case above, Alois mentions floating above his own funeral - clearly not objective because he survived."

It may have been entirely objective at the point where he witnessed it. At least as objective as any view of the future may be. But perhaps in subsequent moments the medical team successfully resolved the problems with the physical body, thereby dissolving that future and replacing it with a different one.

It only becomes problematic if one holds to a fully deterministic world-view.

"In the case above, Alois mentions floating above his own funeral - clearly not objective because he survived."

It may have been entirely objective at the point where he witnessed it. At least as objective as any view of the future may be. But perhaps in subsequent moments the medical team successfully resolved the problems with the physical body, thereby dissolving that future and replacing it with a different one.

It only becomes problematic if one holds to a fully deterministic world-view.

It’s a bit moot really isn’t it? AFAICS there is no way to know if his funeral experience was simply him imaginging it or some glimpse of a possible future is there?

It’s a bit moot really isn’t it? AFAICS there is no way to know if his funeral experience was simply him imaginging it or some glimpse of a possible future is there?

I think this is more likely, Obiwan. In that state we are, I think, more likely to be able to view probable future events. So it might not have been the funeral he might experience maybe thirty (or more) years on at the end of this life but the funeral he would have experienced had he chosen to leave permanently during the operation.