Have we evolved to construct reality?

At our level of physical dimensions our reality "pushes back" against our actions in a feedback that is exactly the innumerable expected ways it would if it were an actual objective physical reality.

This reality doesn't "push back" against our actions, but rather, limits our freedoms to do as we please or choose, except where by sheer force of mind and will, or more mundanely, through the physical form we possess.

To our senses, the realm appears to be solid and real, with a remarkable stability to it. But this doesn't lead to the conclusion of an "actual objective physical reality". You say "expected"... maybe to whatever mysterious definition you happen to be using, but I would disagree, as it's extremely vague. Please expound of what you mean by "expected".

For instance, the automobile exactly obeys the control commands of its driver to avoid the oncoming vehicle based on classical dynamical calculations of potential collision unless steering and speed is changed just so. As I mentioned, there would be chaos and mayhem on the freeways if this were not the case, if our reality did not behave exactly as if there were an objective physical reality.

What is this "objective physical reality" you keep talking about, anyways? What do you mean by "objective" in this context? Intersubjectively, we humans 99.99% of the time share a common physical sensory experience of the world, one that we can communicate to one another. We base everything on a bunch of unspoken presumptions.

This is a good clarification, and I am not hostile to it. The laws of physics are independent of human minds. This is a fact of our reality and we have to live with it whether we like it or not.

I thought that this was presumed? Whatever laws, habits, regulate how matter acts and reacts to certain events, incarnate and disembodied minds cannot over-rule them. At least, not very easily. Presumably, someone with a powerful and trained mind, or a disembodied spirit with a purpose, can briefly cause changes in the physical, over-ruling said laws. In fact, there are many examples.

One member on here mentioned by saved from drowning by their spirit guides / guardian angels in a miraculous event. There have been posts talking about deceased pets who can cause brief moments of sensory phenomena ~ such a meow, a body movement scraping on the floor, perception to the visual senses, and so on. Not sure if it's been posted on here... but there was Tibetan Buddhist monk who was trapped a icey lake, and had problems getting out. He was able to survive 2 hours by manipulating his body temperature until fellow monks were able to rescue him. Without that ability, he would have probably died.

Then the question becomes, what are these other minds, and do they really have any concern over our benefit as human beings in such decisions or choices?

Why should they care about human benefit...? That seems on par with humans being the pinnacle of evolution, or god's chosen, or whatever other arrogant nonsense we've dreamed up to put ourselves on a pedestal.

No ~ these other minds, the minds that created and maintain this physical reality's existence ~ they're not interested in favouritism ~ they merely maintain the physical realm's existence. Anything that happens within is fine, as long as the conditions are adhered to.

This of course also relates to the issue of what or who is it that chooses the next reincarnational life (if that is the mechanism) and how such choices or other mechanisms of rebirth can be so obviously cruel to human beings. Of course that is another entire topic already discussed in another thread.

"Obvously cruel" ~ spoken from the ignorant and helpless perspective of one who has forgotten why they came here, like everyone else. It's not "obviously cruel" to anyone but you and people who share your agonized perspective.

One of the conditions of coming here appears to be amnesia ~ for 99.99999999% of incarnate beings. Some might be able to recall, but I don't know what conditions would have to be fulfilled.

Nearly everyday, I suffer, but I... push on, regardless. I will never give up, no matter the pain and madness. I chose this, on a Soul level, so it has a beneficial purpose, even if I cannot recall what that's supposed to be.

The origin of our reality's intricate and complex apparent design of physical laws extremely fine-tuned to allow our existence does seem to beg for a teleological mind-related explanation, but whatever this mind or minds is, it's not us.

Beg? It seems mighty apparent to me that this physical reality is intelligently designed ~ by whatever above-mentioned souls are responsible for this magnificent, wonder, and powerful illusion.

It could obviously not be our minds that created this realm. But our minds are involved in the formation of our physical bodies, adding a unique flavour to the pattern that builds them up.

This reality doesn't "push back" against our actions, but rather, limits our freedoms to do as we please or choose, except where by sheer force of mind and will, or more mundanely, through the physical form we possess.

This physical reality "pushes back" in our interactions with it due to the basic ways it works - for instance touching something and pushing it involves the transfer of force between the negatively charged outer electron layers of the atoms of the skin of the hand and the similarly charged outer electron layers of whatever is being touched or pushed. Same charges repel. Such mechanisms make the physical world work, including the life of our bodies. 

To our senses, the realm appears to be solid and real, with a remarkable stability to it. But this doesn't lead to the conclusion of an "actual objective physical reality". You say "expected"... maybe to whatever mysterious definition you happen to be using, but I would disagree, as it's extremely vague. Please expound of what you mean by "expected".

What is this "objective physical reality" you keep talking about, anyways? What do you mean by "objective" in this context? Intersubjectively, we humans 99.99% of the time share a common physical sensory experience of the world, one that we can communicate to one another. We base everything on a bunch of unspoken presumptions.

I allude to "objective physical reality" as the de facto way the world works, and admit that apparently it probably isn't the ultimate nature of reality. But it's what we have to deal with in our lives. By "expected" I merely mean the way the world is known to work at the human level of physical interactions, that is, what is expected from the known highly accurate approximations of classical dynamics.  

Why should they care about human benefit...? That seems on par with humans being the pinnacle of evolution, or god's chosen, or whatever other arrogant nonsense we've dreamed up to put ourselves on a pedestal.

No ~ these other minds, the minds that created and maintain this physical reality's existence ~ they're not interested in favouritism ~ they merely maintain the physical realm's existence. Anything that happens within is fine, as long as the conditions are adhered to.

I agree that our reality has apparently not been set up with our benefit in mind - these minds presumably have their own different purposes not related to our desires and needs. You apparently find this probable attitude of indifference to be OK as far as you are concerned.

"Obvously cruel" ~ spoken from the ignorant and helpless perspective of one who has forgotten why they came here, like everyone else. It's not "obviously cruel" to anyone but you and people who share your agonized perspective.

Speak that to the countless innocent sufferers who would angrily reject this philosophy.

One of the conditions of coming here appears to be amnesia ~ for 99.99999999% of incarnate beings. Some might be able to recall, but I don't know what conditions would have to be fulfilled.

Nearly everyday, I suffer, but I... push on, regardless. I will never give up, no matter the pain and madness. I chose this, on a Soul level, so it has a beneficial purpose, even if I cannot recall what that's supposed to be

I applaud your faith, evidently an inner knowing. It certainly can't be arrived at by reason alone.

This physical reality "pushes back" in our interactions with it due to the basic ways it works - for instance touching something and pushing it involves the transfer of force between the negatively charged outer electron layers of the atoms of the skin of the hand and the similarly charged outer electron layers of whatever is being touched or pushed. Same charges repel. Such mechanisms make the physical world work, including the life of our bodies.

That's a curious way to describe it, but I would disagree with your assessment.

Physical reality doesn't "push back" so much as our ability to exert our mental power on the physical being limited in scope. Maybe you see them as the same thing, but I see a difference between my description and yours.

With enough force, one can bend the law, habits, of physical reality in small ways, as shown by paranormal research.

I allude to "objective physical reality" as the de facto way the world works, and admit that apparently it probably isn't the ultimate nature of reality. But it's what we have to deal with in our lives.

"De facto" refers to the idea of how something actually is. "Actually; in fact; in reality." I don't think this is what you meant, though...?

It is how the world appears to our senses, perhaps, but that is so that we have a sense of stability in this reality. The physical world, in reality, is nothing like it seems to our senses. In practice, how the world appears to our senses, for the average person without any paranormal senses, anyways, is the reality we know of.

The true nature of the physical is how the disincarnate Souls perceive it. They see it for what it really is, while we cannot, we who are blinded by such extensive and deep immersion in the illusion presented by our physical senses.

By "expected" I merely mean the way the world is known to work at the human level of physical interactions, that is, what is expected from the known highly accurate approximations of classical dynamics. 

It is what is expected, yes, and it doesn't take into account the effects of consciousness ~ whether imperceptibly minute, or the effects of paranormal events or abilities on the physical, whether directly on physics and matters, or merely overlaid onto the physical senses of the observer.

I agree that our reality has apparently not been set up with our benefit in mind - these minds presumably have their own different purposes not related to our desires and needs. You apparently find this probable attitude of indifference to be OK as far as you are concerned.

This physical reality has zero reason to be set up for the benefit, desires or needs of humans in particular. It's a seemingly arrogant and speciest perspective of the world. Though I am uncertain if this is your intent, or due to imprecise wording.

This physical world is intelligently designed in the way it is, for... whatever purpose. My musings lead me to suspect that it's a proving ground of sorts. A place that we willingly subject ourselves to, in order to experience struggles and limitations, to have to something to work through.

It's not exciting to be able to do whatever you, whenever ~ that becomes eventually boring. So, we come here, knowing that no matter our pain and suffering, no matter how intense and gruesome, that it is always temporary, and we can come back as many times as we like, to apply previous learnings and experiences.

The creators, the designers, of this physical realm, are not indifferent to suffering, I suspect. It's merely that they will not interfere in the challenges other Souls willingly put themselves through. Why should they interfere in pain willingly suffered?

Speak that to the countless innocent sufferers who would angrily reject this philosophy.

I would. And I would pity them for their lack of recollection for why they suffer.

I myself suffer, though innocent. And why do I still accept this philosophy? Because I have a vaguely intuitive understanding that this suffering is temporary. That it is something to be endured.

And if endurance runs out, as it will, for some... they will recall and understand why, once they leave this world.

I applaud your faith, evidently an inner knowing. It certainly can't be arrived at by reason alone.

I have a combination of vague intuitions, in part triggered by what my spirit guides were allowed to tell me. There's no reason that I must believe them... but something deep within tells me that what they told me was truth, though I doubt it every day... I can only know for certain once my suffering comes to end in, during this lifetime, or at its end, whenever that may be.

I have a combination of vague intuitions, in part triggered by what my spirit guides were allowed to tell me. There's no reason that I must believe them... but something deep within tells me that what they told me was truth, though I doubt it every day... I can only know for certain once my suffering comes to end in, during this lifetime, or at its end, whenever that may be.

Curious - could you say more about this experience with your spirit guides, either in this thread or the personal exploration one?

Just trying to expand my own seeking practice so this is of great interest to me, thanks!

The ultimate metaphysical question: why something rather than nothing?

The ultimate philosophical question: to be or not to be?

The ultimate ethical question: are you a victim or a gamer?

Curious - could you say more about this experience with your spirit guides, either in this thread or the personal exploration one?

Just trying to expand my own seeking practice so this is of great interest to me, thanks!

Will post in another thread.

The ultimate metaphysical question: why something rather than nothing?

Not sure about this one being the ultimate, I kinda like the question regarding specific events -> "Why this thing instead of Everything?"

Your problem is that Nature doesn’t behave *exactly* as if there is an objective physical reality that is independent of the observer. We’ve tested it countless times by experiment, and that’s what we’ve discovered. We can’t say anything about the objective situation before the initial state, or between the initial state and the measurement. Indeed if we knew something objective about the state in between the initial state and the measurement, the results of your QM experiment wouldn’t make any sense. But QM experiments are wonderfully reproducible, and incredibly accurate, and they are probabilistic.

I appreciate for the overwhelming majority of people (including myself), this is very difficult to understand, and may be impossible for some people to accept. We were brought up and taught to understand nature in a very different way. It is incredibly difficult to understand QM using that old way of thinking, because QM is genuinely different, it’s not really possible to understand it using classical analogies. You just have to accept it for what it is, the more you do, the easier it gets. The old classical way of thinking about nature is an effective approximation, but it isn’t correct. Feel free to try and understand nature using the old way of thinking, but it will be inaccurate, because we know some new things about how nature actually works since the 1920’s, and these new discoveries are genuinely different, but generally arrive at the same results as the old classical theories, but far more accurately, and also they solve a number of anomalies we previously struggled with.

As I tried to explain, what I meant was that reality behaves exactly as if there is an independent physical reality independent of the observer, to a virtually perfect approximation at the size level of human beings and their practical interactions with the physical world. As I tried to explain, I don't dispute that the fundamental foundations of physical reality described by QM at the elementary particle level obey very different laws.