Psience Quest

Have we evolved to construct reality?

Heather Ashbach

Quote:A new book, The Case Against Reality: Why Evolution Hid the Truth from Our Eyes (W. W. Norton, 2019), applies this concept to the whole of human consciousness—how we see, think, feel, and interact with the world around us. And author Donald Hoffman, a cognitive scientist at the University of California, Irvine, thinks we’ve been looking at it all wrong.

Quote:“As a scientist, I propose a theory and then try to prove the theory wrong, to test its validity,” he says. “Because there is no mathematical theory explaining the pattern of neural activity that creates consciousness, it may mean we are making a false assumption.”

Quote:There are tons of correlations between brain activity and specific conscious experiences. Area V4 of the brain is coordinated with color experience. If I stimulate that area with a magnet, I can make you lose all color experience. Turn the magnet off and your color experience comes back. This is really important data. If I do the same in Area V5—you lose all motion perception. There are hundreds of correlations like this—specific patterns of activity. This is important data, but it’s just data. It’s not a theory. The question is—for scientists—what mathematical theory actually explains them? And we don’t have one. Why? Because most approaches assume that brain activity causes conscious experience. But no one has an idea about how to boot up conscious experience from the brain; there are no theories that explain this.

Our failure to find a theory suggests that we may be making a false assumption.

Quote:What I’m doing from a science perspective is bringing mathematical rigor to what those in the spiritual community have been thinking for hundreds of years. But I’m iconoclastic—just because something has been believed for thousands of years doesn’t make it true. This is very different from the standard religious view. I think it’s important to have mutual respect—we can get to a point where the science side can learn from the spiritual traditions and likewise the spiritual side can learn not to hold ideas too tightly. How can you learn if you’re not willing to let go of what might be false? It gets in the way of genuine progress.

This seems to be the latest video of Hoffman going into his Idealism:

Hoffman's concept is frustratingly nebulous, at least as he attempts to describe it in this article. 

Quote:"If we can’t start with neurons and boot up consciousness, let’s start with consciousness and boot up neurons. And that’s what I’m working on now—a mathematical model of consciousness. And it has to be precise.

If we've mistaken our perceptions for the truth, our entire perception of spacetime and physical objects is misleading.

The idea is that reality is a vast social network of interacting consciousnesses. Each conscious agent has experience and can make freewill actions. So it’s a very vast social network. Think of the Twitterverse. There are millions of users and billions of tweets. Trying to see and understand it all is too much. In big data, we use graphical interfaces that hide all of the chatter and instead give summaries. Evolution did that for us. Spacetime and physical objects are just our visualization tools that help us to interact within this vast social network without even seeing it."

How does this relate to the everyday invariantly mechanistic and cause-and-effect interactive dualism-like interaction of thousands of automobile drivers on the Los Angeles freeways? All this closely coordinated activity of thousands of individual humans with other humans in an apparent physical objective reality would instantly degenerate into chaos, mayhem and multiple collisions and accidents if there was not actually a fixed objective physical reality interfaced with by conscious human beings, with that interface being determined by invariant laws of motion.  There are of course innumerable other examples of this.

(2019-08-16, 07:02 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]If you narrow down nature to just a tiny tiny piece, QM shows us that each observation of nature is different. Observations actually change the system. We also find nature works probabilistically. Your classical laws are just approximations, all physics is now probabilistic. Classical physics died in the 1920’s and was replaced by a new and more accurate generalisation... called quantum mechanics.

This does indeed seem to be the case. But regardless of the ultimate nature of its elementary particle building blocks the human level of physical reality (as exemplified by the freeway traffic example) behaves exactly as if it were a combination of matter and energy behaving according to determinism and classical physics along with the intervention of immaterial consciousness embodied in human beings. This may ultimately just be a very close approximation, but this is extremely close to being just as if there is an objective physical reality interfacing with immaterial consciousness via physical brains, as posited by interactive dualism. Rather than being as if it is "a vast social network of interacting consciousnesses" (Hoffman's terminology).

Why should reality present itself so falsely to humans? I think there is a mysterious teleology in this.

(2019-08-16, 03:59 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]All this closely coordinated activity of thousands of individual humans with other humans in an apparent physical objective reality would instantly degenerate into chaos, mayhem and multiple collisions and accidents

Why would this happen? Keep in mind Hoffman's Conscious Agents are not humans or, at the least, not just humans.

I look at Hoffman's Conscious Realism as the Idealist version of the P2P Simulation Hypothesis.

(2019-08-16, 03:59 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]How does this relate to the everyday invariantly mechanistic and cause-and-effect interactive dualism-like interaction of thousands of automobile drivers on the Los Angeles freeways? All this closely coordinated activity of thousands of individual humans with other humans in an apparent physical objective reality would instantly degenerate into chaos, mayhem and multiple collisions and accidents if there was not actually a fixed objective physical reality interfaced with by conscious human beings, with that interface being determined by invariant laws of motion.  There are of course innumerable other examples of this.

You presume that there must be an "objective physical reality", when you cannot know this. Your senses via your physical body tell you that it seems to be like, but you have no way of knowing that this is the case. This physical reality's apparent solidity could just as easily be an illusion by the physical senses, for all you know. For all any of us know.

The apparent laws of physics that regulate matter, or as Bernardo Kastrup calls them, habits, do not have to be independent of mind. Obviously, our minds didn't create them ~ other minds did, the minds that constructed this reality, formulate, and enforce, said laws, habits. They are designed to limit what conscious beings can do in this reality, and seem to enforce that one must be bound to a body in order to interact with this reality.

As the religion of Voudon shows, it seems that not only do human Souls "inhabit" or project through the physical form, other beings can temporarily possess the body. In Voudon, the priests will call in spirits to converse with them, to ask them questions, ask for favours after a sacrifice, and so on.

Based on my speculations, the physical realm is not divorced from the spiritual realms, but exists within it, interpenetrating it. Meaning that outside spirits can observe the happenings of this realm whenever they please, even if they cannot cause change upon it 99% of the time. It's as if there's a barrier preventing ease of access from both sides, preventing outside spirits easy access, but also preventing the incarnate easy access to... beyond.

Shamans, mediums, psychics, and others with spiritual, paranormal abilities... they have an easier time reaching out to the spiritual realms, but also, outside spirits have an easier time contacting them. No wonder go-between is an apt term for such gifted people, whether by honed talent, or by insight being gifted by the spirits.

(2019-08-18, 04:15 AM)Valmar Wrote: [ -> ]You presume that there must be an "objective physical reality", when you cannot know this. Your senses via your physical body tell you that it seems to be like, but you have no way of knowing that this is the case. This physical reality's apparent solidity could just as easily be an illusion by the physical senses, for all you know. For all any of us know.

At our level of physical dimensions our reality "pushes back" against our actions in a feedback that is exactly the innumerable expected ways it would if it were an actual objective physical reality.  Our continued lives as physical beings depends on that unerring interaction. For instance, the automobile exactly obeys the control commands of its driver to avoid the oncoming vehicle based on classical dynamical calculations of potential collision unless steering and speed is changed just so. As I mentioned, there would be chaos and mayhem on the freeways if this were not the case, if our reality did not behave exactly as if there were an objective physical reality.    

Quote:The apparent laws of physics that regulate matter, or as Bernardo Kastrup calls them, habits, do not have to be independent of mind. Obviously, our minds didn't create them ~ other minds did, the minds that constructed this reality, formulate, and enforce, said laws, habits. They are designed to limit what conscious beings can do in this reality, and seem to enforce that one must be bound to a body in order to interact with this reality.

This is a good clarification, and I am not hostile to it. The laws of physics are independent of human minds. This is a fact of our reality and we have to live with it whether we like it or not.

Then the question becomes, what are these other minds, and do they really have any concern over our benefit as human beings in such decisions or choices? This of course also relates to the issue of what or who is it that chooses the next reincarnational life (if that is the mechanism) and how such choices or other mechanisms of rebirth can be so obviously cruel to human beings. Of course that is another entire topic already discussed in another thread.

The origin of our reality's intricate and complex apparent design of physical laws extremely fine-tuned to allow our existence does seem to beg for a teleological mind-related explanation, but whatever this mind or minds is, it's not us.

(2019-08-18, 06:52 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]At our level of physical dimensions our reality "pushes back" against our actions in a feedback that is exactly the innumerable expected ways it would if it were an actual objective physical reality.

This reality doesn't "push back" against our actions, but rather, limits our freedoms to do as we please or choose, except where by sheer force of mind and will, or more mundanely, through the physical form we possess.

To our senses, the realm appears to be solid and real, with a remarkable stability to it. But this doesn't lead to the conclusion of an "actual objective physical reality". You say "expected"... maybe to whatever mysterious definition you happen to be using, but I would disagree, as it's extremely vague. Please expound of what you mean by "expected".

(2019-08-18, 06:52 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]For instance, the automobile exactly obeys the control commands of its driver to avoid the oncoming vehicle based on classical dynamical calculations of potential collision unless steering and speed is changed just so. As I mentioned, there would be chaos and mayhem on the freeways if this were not the case, if our reality did not behave exactly as if there were an objective physical reality.

What is this "objective physical reality" you keep talking about, anyways? What do you mean by "objective" in this context? Intersubjectively, we humans 99.99% of the time share a common physical sensory experience of the world, one that we can communicate to one another. We base everything on a bunch of unspoken presumptions.

(2019-08-18, 06:52 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]This is a good clarification, and I am not hostile to it. The laws of physics are independent of human minds. This is a fact of our reality and we have to live with it whether we like it or not.

I thought that this was presumed? Whatever laws, habits, regulate how matter acts and reacts to certain events, incarnate and disembodied minds cannot over-rule them. At least, not very easily. Presumably, someone with a powerful and trained mind, or a disembodied spirit with a purpose, can briefly cause changes in the physical, over-ruling said laws. In fact, there are many examples.

One member on here mentioned by saved from drowning by their spirit guides / guardian angels in a miraculous event. There have been posts talking about deceased pets who can cause brief moments of sensory phenomena ~ such a meow, a body movement scraping on the floor, perception to the visual senses, and so on. Not sure if it's been posted on here... but there was Tibetan Buddhist monk who was trapped a icey lake, and had problems getting out. He was able to survive 2 hours by manipulating his body temperature until fellow monks were able to rescue him. Without that ability, he would have probably died.

(2019-08-18, 06:52 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]Then the question becomes, what are these other minds, and do they really have any concern over our benefit as human beings in such decisions or choices?

Why should they care about human benefit...? That seems on par with humans being the pinnacle of evolution, or god's chosen, or whatever other arrogant nonsense we've dreamed up to put ourselves on a pedestal.

No ~ these other minds, the minds that created and maintain this physical reality's existence ~ they're not interested in favouritism ~ they merely maintain the physical realm's existence. Anything that happens within is fine, as long as the conditions are adhered to.

(2019-08-18, 06:52 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]This of course also relates to the issue of what or who is it that chooses the next reincarnational life (if that is the mechanism) and how such choices or other mechanisms of rebirth can be so obviously cruel to human beings. Of course that is another entire topic already discussed in another thread.

"Obvously cruel" ~ spoken from the ignorant and helpless perspective of one who has forgotten why they came here, like everyone else. It's not "obviously cruel" to anyone but you and people who share your agonized perspective.

One of the conditions of coming here appears to be amnesia ~ for 99.99999999% of incarnate beings. Some might be able to recall, but I don't know what conditions would have to be fulfilled.

Nearly everyday, I suffer, but I... push on, regardless. I will never give up, no matter the pain and madness. I chose this, on a Soul level, so it has a beneficial purpose, even if I cannot recall what that's supposed to be.

(2019-08-18, 06:52 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]The origin of our reality's intricate and complex apparent design of physical laws extremely fine-tuned to allow our existence does seem to beg for a teleological mind-related explanation, but whatever this mind or minds is, it's not us.

Beg? It seems mighty apparent to me that this physical reality is intelligently designed ~ by whatever above-mentioned souls are responsible for this magnificent, wonder, and powerful illusion.

It could obviously not be our minds that created this realm. But our minds are involved in the formation of our physical bodies, adding a unique flavour to the pattern that builds them up.

(2019-08-19, 12:16 AM)Valmar Wrote: [ -> ]This reality doesn't "push back" against our actions, but rather, limits our freedoms to do as we please or choose, except where by sheer force of mind and will, or more mundanely, through the physical form we possess.

This physical reality "pushes back" in our interactions with it due to the basic ways it works - for instance touching something and pushing it involves the transfer of force between the negatively charged outer electron layers of the atoms of the skin of the hand and the similarly charged outer electron layers of whatever is being touched or pushed. Same charges repel. Such mechanisms make the physical world work, including the life of our bodies. 

Quote:To our senses, the realm appears to be solid and real, with a remarkable stability to it. But this doesn't lead to the conclusion of an "actual objective physical reality". You say "expected"... maybe to whatever mysterious definition you happen to be using, but I would disagree, as it's extremely vague. Please expound of what you mean by "expected".

What is this "objective physical reality" you keep talking about, anyways? What do you mean by "objective" in this context? Intersubjectively, we humans 99.99% of the time share a common physical sensory experience of the world, one that we can communicate to one another. We base everything on a bunch of unspoken presumptions.

I allude to "objective physical reality" as the de facto way the world works, and admit that apparently it probably isn't the ultimate nature of reality. But it's what we have to deal with in our lives. By "expected" I merely mean the way the world is known to work at the human level of physical interactions, that is, what is expected from the known highly accurate approximations of classical dynamics.  

Quote:Why should they care about human benefit...? That seems on par with humans being the pinnacle of evolution, or god's chosen, or whatever other arrogant nonsense we've dreamed up to put ourselves on a pedestal.

No ~ these other minds, the minds that created and maintain this physical reality's existence ~ they're not interested in favouritism ~ they merely maintain the physical realm's existence. Anything that happens within is fine, as long as the conditions are adhered to.

I agree that our reality has apparently not been set up with our benefit in mind - these minds presumably have their own different purposes not related to our desires and needs. You apparently find this probable attitude of indifference to be OK as far as you are concerned.

Quote:"Obvously cruel" ~ spoken from the ignorant and helpless perspective of one who has forgotten why they came here, like everyone else. It's not "obviously cruel" to anyone but you and people who share your agonized perspective.

Speak that to the countless innocent sufferers who would angrily reject this philosophy.

Quote:One of the conditions of coming here appears to be amnesia ~ for 99.99999999% of incarnate beings. Some might be able to recall, but I don't know what conditions would have to be fulfilled.

Nearly everyday, I suffer, but I... push on, regardless. I will never give up, no matter the pain and madness. I chose this, on a Soul level, so it has a beneficial purpose, even if I cannot recall what that's supposed to be

I applaud your faith, evidently an inner knowing. It certainly can't be arrived at by reason alone.