Why do you believe, advocates/skeptics?

Well, if ‘experience’ is what it takes to know things for a ‘fact’ then I probably should never post here, either on the ‘hidden forums’ or anywhere else. The vast majority of what we might think we know is not through direct experience, but through learning, or propaganda - but definitely at least second hand. 

I have had one direct experience that I found very interesting, but is that all that you think really qualifies me ?

I guess that is arguably correct because you are referring to factual information which we do indeed need to know as quickly as possible. We have to read/hear/know facts (about the world) in order to set out and undertake our journey (in the world) which leads to experience in the real world, not the world that is just outlined in books. 

But surely it is the direct experiencing of life (actually in amongst the facts) that really teaches us about life ? One can read a book about the Great Barrier Reef but until you get into the water there, you can't really know what it's truly like.

Well, if ‘experience’ is what it takes to know things for a ‘fact’ then I probably should never post here, either on the ‘hidden forums’ or anywhere else. The vast majority of what we might think we know is not through direct experience, but through learning, or propaganda - but definitely at least second hand. 

I have had one direct experience that I found very interesting, but is that all that you think really qualifies me ?

Steve, I was speaking for myself.

There was no intention to pass judgement upon you or anyone else. You are of course free to speak for yourself, you are the only person qualified to do so.

Steve, I was speaking for myself.

There was no intention to pass judgement upon you or anyone else. You are of course free to speak for yourself, you are the only person qualified to do so.

Hmm, that sounds a little defensive. I have no problem with you passing judgement on my opinions, none at all, I think it’s healthy. Not that that was the reason I wrote what I did, what you said just stood out as something worth questioning. I think it’s normal to have opinions and agree and disagree with others. I thought that was what science, for one example, was all about?

Steve, perhaps you got out of bed the wrong side this morning. For some reason it seems you are intent on picking a fight. I suggest you relax a little, live and let live.

I guess that is arguably correct because you are referring to factual information which we do indeed need to know as quickly as possible.

Tim, it’s more than arguably correct, it’s obviously correct imo. 

Have you experience of an NDE? Should you not post about them? 
Had Einstein experience of General or Special Relativity? 
Without others thinking about it, would Armstrong have been able to experience walking on the moon? 
What about Artists, or Musicians? 
I would venture a guess that the vast majority of what is discussed here on the forum, has not been experienced directly by the vast majority of posters. 

It’s imagination, and it’s very important imo. Einstein actually said that imagination was more important than knowledge. Was he very wrong?

Tim, it’s more than arguably correct, it’s obviously correct imo. 

Have you experience of an NDE? Should you not post about them? 
Had Einstein experience of General or Special Relativity? 
Without others thinking about it, would Armstrong have been able to experience walking on the moon? 
What about Artists, or Musicians? 
I would venture a guess that the vast majority of what is discussed here on the forum, has not been experienced directly by the vast majority of posters. 

It’s imagination, and it’s very important imo. Einstein actually said that imagination was more important than knowledge. Was he very wrong?

No, Stan I completely disagree. The "facts" (if we accept them as we ought to if there is sufficient evidence for them) have been discovered/collected by tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of previous human beings down the ages. 

Your post 

Well, if ‘experience’ is what it takes to know things for a ‘fact’ then I probably should never post here, either on the ‘hidden forums’ or anywhere else. The vast majority of what we might think we know is not through direct experience, but through learning, or propaganda - but definitely at least second hand. 
I have had one direct experience that I found very interesting, but is that all that you think really qualifies me ?

I could have looked in a book (when I was a child) to try to understand what it feels like to be punched in the face in the play ground (for instance). I could never have known what it was actually like, though. To have your nose busted (for instance) and warm liquid (blood) running down your chin whilst your ears are assaulted by the baying shouts of the watchers egging on the individual who's determined to knock your teeth out. 

Same goes for the feeling of falling head over heels in love with someone and then being coldly rejected when their love was the greatest thing that had ever happened to you (you thought at the time).

Same goes for the whole game of life, you name it.  You have to experience it to know it. To know what it's really like. Looking at it from 'heaven' above as one might look at a book, is not the same as coming down and participating in it here on earth and that's what I suspect may have something to do with why we have to come here. But who knows.

Steve, perhaps you got out of bed the wrong side this morning. For some reason it seems you are intent on picking a fight. I suggest you relax a little, live and let live.

How very wrong you are. I went out for the first time on my new trike before replying to your post and came back on a real high, after chatting to people around the town and getting some exercise with real freedom.

I just want to talk. That’s the whole point of the forum imo. I think it might just be your issue/bias rather than mine Typoz.

The "facts" (if we accept them as we ought to if there is sufficient evidence for them) have been discovered/collected by tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of previous human beings down the ages. 

Well, facts are interesting. 
Some we accept as obvious, like ‘cars are used for transport’, or ‘planes fly through the air’ and so on. However a lot of ‘facts’ have to be taken on trust, how aeroplanes work or how cars work, is really unknown by the majority of people. Even experts about both aeroplanes and cars, will have many gaps in their knowledge.

‘Experience’ may be the ‘holy grail’, but how many of us have the very same experience with some things, but have very different opinions about those experiences? The covid event has surely shown us how anything that we process with the exact same data, can be interpreted very differently because every single thing must go through our mind, our brain. 

That we choose to use or abuse our thoughts instead of concentrating instead on our experiences, seems to me part of the journey. 

It is evidence for me at least, that idealism is a strong contender for a reality beyond what seems obvious. 

Interesting stuff for me.

Well, facts are interesting. 
Some we accept as obvious, like ‘cars are used for transport’, or ‘planes fly through the air’ and so on. However a lot of ‘facts’ have to be taken on trust, how aeroplanes work or how cars work, is really unknown by the majority of people. Even experts about both aeroplanes and cars, will have many gaps in their knowledge.

‘Experience’ may be the ‘holy grail’, but how many of us have the very same experience with some things, but have very different opinions about those experiences? The covid event has surely shown us how anything that we process with the exact same data, can be interpreted very differently because every single thing must go through our mind, our brain. 

That we choose to use or abuse our thoughts instead of concentrating instead on our experiences, seems to me part of the journey. 

It is evidence for me at least, that idealism is a strong contender for a reality beyond what seems obvious. 

Interesting stuff for me.

You've side stepped the point there, Stan but I don't mind. 

You've side stepped the point there, Stan but I don't mind. 

I really didn’t think I had. Oh well.   

It’s such a rich area to ponder imo, that it’s easy to get carried away down a side road, that may lead to a six - lane motorway. Like cavers squeezing through a tiny wee hole to find themselves in a monstrous cavern.

Sorry, I got carried away using my imagination. It’s a dirty habit!