What came first, the spirit or the myth?

I've been wondering lately... when it comes to spiritual entities ~ the Scandinavian elves, gnomes, Native American spirits and spiritual entities like Mother Ayahuasca, the Japanese kami, Chinese spirits, etc, etc... can we so easily say what came first, the spiritual entities or the myths and stories surrounding them?

Of course, there are all of the attempts at finding conventional mythological explanations for most spiritual entities, but after some of my recent experiences, I am now far from certain that they are good explanations...

For instance, Chinese loong have been claimed to have originated from crocodiles or combinations of other animals, but I have to wonder... what if the depictions, drawings and sculptures and such are based on actual spiritual experiences that were attempted to be replicated or communicated?

I have encountered one such loong, now a close companion, who I somehow called out to. Later, I had past life memories, flashes, of living a life somewhere in rural China, where we celebrating the river, and I was one of the few who seemed to notice the loong... and I realized they had to be one and the same. There was a striking feeling of familiarity.

So... spiritual entities can quite possibly be real existences in their own right, separate from our whims and fantasies...?
I really do wonder how many myths have their basis in some distant past spiritual experience someone had...

I've been wondering lately... when it comes to spiritual entities ~ the Scandinavian elves, gnomes, Native American spirits and spiritual entities like Mother Ayahuasca, the Japanese kami, Chinese spirits, etc, etc... can we so easily say what came first, the spiritual entities or the myths and stories surrounding them?

Of course, there are all of the attempts at finding conventional mythological explanations for most spiritual entities, but after some of my recent experiences, I am now far from certain that they are good explanations...

For instance, Chinese loong have been claimed to have originated from crocodiles or combinations of other animals, but I have to wonder... what if the depictions, drawings and sculptures and such are based on actual spiritual experiences that were attempted to be replicated or communicated?

I have encountered one such loong, now a close companion, who I somehow called out to. Later, I had past life memories, flashes, of living a life somewhere in rural China, where we celebrating the river, and I was one of the few who seemed to notice the loong... and I realized they had to be one and the same. There was a striking feeling of familiarity.

So... spiritual entities can quite possibly be real existences in their own right, separate from our whims and fantasies...?
I really do wonder how many myths have their basis in some distant past spiritual experience someone had...

The Reality of Spirits thread might be of interest.

Gordon White has also thought about and written about this topic extensively. (Sadly the spirits tag only shows a few articles but there are really many more on that site, that's just a taste.) [Paywalled content sadly, this Animism tag - as noted below - is public]

Lately I've been thinking a lot about the Umwelt concept, the idea that our interface replaces the "alien-ness" of the world beyond our concepts with what we know. So animal headed gods, or animal spirits, may be what our mind replaces the truth with.

That said, I don't think it's inconceivable that even animal consciousness has more mysteries than we usually are willing to consider...

The Reality of Spirits thread might be of interest.

Lots of varied info there.

Gordon White has also thought about and written about this topic extensively. (Sadly the spirits tag only shows a few articles but there are really many more on that site, that's just a taste.)

Everything on that page is behind a paywall, alas.

Lately I've been thinking a lot about the Umwelt concept, the idea that our interface replaces the "alien-ness" of the world beyond our concepts with what we know. So animal headed gods, or animal spirits, may be what our mind replaces the truth with.

Makes sense. It explains my perception of the Bird God I have encountered, I suppose ~ there was but the thinnest veneer of a bird, something the culture of my parallel self, Gooseberry, could relate to. But its energy was so powerful that it was blinding. I could barely perceive the form it presented. And the more I tried perceiving it fully, there was just what I could perceive as a fractal of galaxies just rapidly kept expanding in scope, far beyond my comprehension. It's one way to break a mind, I suppose, if it hadn't shielded me from itself.

That said, I don't think it's inconceivable that even animal consciousness has more mysteries than we usually are willing to consider...

Considering that we are animals, then the gap isn't so large. The tiger spirit I communicate with daily was incarnate in their previous life, and they're extremely intelligent and clever. In this life, they're incarnate in an astral form as close to physical as possible, as a properly physical form wouldn't be feasible due to my situation in this life. But they're also not so bound by the limitations of a tiger ego and instincts and such in this form. No biological urges or requirements for food sure make a difference.

Everything on that page is behind a paywall, alas.

Ah weird, well the Animism tag covers a lot of stuff about spirits and isn't the paywalled stuff ->

https://runesoup.com/category/animism/

Sorry about that!

I take the stance that if you're not talking about something's ontological reality then you're not talking about anything at all and any further discussion is pointless. In this case, if the spirits didn't precede the myth, then even if people somehow generated them afterwards via PSI as a combination of some theories and evidence would suggest is possible, then you're stlll dealing with something that is in some sense not real. I have a theory that in such cases the behaviour of such entities would be more robotic and rigid, being generated from a belief structure, rather than the more complex, organic behaviours you'd expect from a genuine independent agent with it's own motives, ideas, perceptions, etc.

I would be curious to know why you think you are contacting real spirits though. How did you determine that?

I take the stance that if you're not talking about something's ontological reality then you're not talking about anything at all and any further discussion is pointless. In this case, if the spirits didn't precede the myth, then even if people somehow generated them afterwards via PSI as a combination of some theories and evidence would suggest is possible, then you're stlll dealing with something that is in some sense not real. I have a theory that in such cases the behaviour of such entities would be more robotic and rigid, being generated from a belief structure, rather than the more complex, organic behaviours you'd expect from a genuine independent agent with it's own motives, ideas, perceptions, etc.

Indeed, though I think about seances where people have seemingly conjured or contacted entities that have vibrant personalities.

I would be curious to know why you think you are contacting real spirits though. How did you determine that?

Because, as you have described, I have encountered entities that are not robotic or rigid, and whose natures ended up being far more than I could have ever expected. They clearly have their own motives, ideas, perceptions, emotions and beliefs.

My tiger spirit has been confirmed on multiple occasions ~ spirit guide painting, a spirit drawing where they're behind the Green Man, and a reading I had done where the practitioner went into a vision state and encountered a tiger in that space protecting my mind, allowing them access once they were deemed safe. The tiger spirit also has some strong emotions that they've opened up about ~ trauma, basically. It's not something I'd really know how to prove to others who don't have these sort of capabilities, frankly.

The loong spirit is rather new companion that I inadvertently called out to through a strong moment of intuition. I had a very strong flash of a shimmering, iridescent loong and felt compelled to call out to that strong energy. I meditated and my mind rose up to some heavenly space where I felt myself send out a strong beacon of energy, a call. It came shortly after, most intrigued by the call. It had to be the same entity I had felt, because its energy I could feel was a perfect match. Later, I had flashbacks of what felt like a past life, where I knew this spirit.

Indeed, though I think about seances where people have seemingly conjured or contacted entities that have vibrant personalities.


Because, as you have described, I have encountered entities that are not robotic or rigid, and whose natures ended up being far more than I could have ever expected. They clearly have their own motives, ideas, perceptions, emotions and beliefs.

My tiger spirit has been confirmed on multiple occasions ~ spirit guide painting, a spirit drawing where they're behind the Green Man, and a reading I had done where the practitioner went into a vision state and encountered a tiger in that space protecting my mind, allowing them access once they were deemed safe. The tiger spirit also has some strong emotions that they've opened up about ~ trauma, basically. It's not something I'd really know how to prove to others who don't have these sort of capabilities, frankly.

The loong spirit is rather new companion that I inadvertently called out to through a strong moment of intuition. I had a very strong flash of a shimmering, iridescent loong and felt compelled to call out to that strong energy. I meditated and my mind rose up to some heavenly space where I felt myself send out a strong beacon of energy, a call. It came shortly after, most intrigued by the call. It had to be the same entity I had felt, because its energy I could feel was a perfect match. Later, I had flashbacks of what felt like a past life, where I knew this spirit.

If they're contacting real spirits in a seance there's no reason to be surprised it has a vibrant personality.

And you certainly have a lot more solid reasons for believing in the reality of your tiger spirit than I normally hear, bravo. Normally people just say something to the effect of "Well it feels really real so it must be!" and that's it. I know full well the difficulty in verifying what is and is not real in this whole area as you can probably imagine given all my own stories. And the importance of critical thinking and empiricism in it.

If they're contacting real spirits in a seance there's no reason to be surprised it has a vibrant personality.

Indeed, considering that in some, they contact the same spirit and develop an in-group relationship with it over time, which grants more reality to it, as there is consistency over time to interactions with it. Though that reality is one that defies description by any conventional means. How sad it is that we've been held back by Materialism from getting a better grasp on these phenomena... we might have better descriptions by now, but alas, we are where we are, for better or worse.

And you certainly have a lot more solid reasons for believing in the reality of your tiger spirit than I normally hear, bravo. Normally people just say something to the effect of "Well it feels really real so it must be!" and that's it. I know full well the difficulty in verifying what is and is not real in this whole area as you can probably imagine given all my own stories. And the importance of critical thinking and empiricism in it.

Indeed... and just earlier, I somehow... somehow, reached a new peak, which I didn't previously think could be possible... I was able to attain a full comprehension of my tiger spirit's... form, energy, the feeling of that energy and form, in nearly full clarity. It was sharp, lucid and clear, fully formed and defined... vibrational energy. Even my tiger spirit was rather stunned for a long moment, as we've never done that before. I guess I broke through some sort of ceiling... though I'm not sure what that was.

And to think I just wanted to sense them as if they were physical, as they were when they were incarnate in their previous life... well, this beats that by a very long mile. Ah... I am a little too giddy right now still, I think, from that infectious experience. Good time to ground, center and balance, I suppose.