Uri Geller - What do you think?

But more to the point, is anyone on here basing their pro-psi opinions on what Geller did, don't think so.

That's a fair question. I suspect most of us consider our opinions of Geller to be our opinions of Geller, nothing more, nothing less.

At any rate, I have no vested interest in the matter. Except perhaps one, I don't like hasty conclusions, especially about people. Come to think of it, the older I get, the more I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

That's a fair question. I suspect most of us consider our opinions of Geller to be our opinions of Geller, nothing more, nothing less.

At any rate, I have no vested interest in the matter. Except perhaps one, I don't like hasty conclusions, especially about people. Come to think of it, the older I get, the more I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

You should come educate the maniacs on pprune! Haha 

I’m one of them, naturally.

Ok, I'm back. So here is why I believe that all PK and remote viewing is fake:

1) The experiments were biased. Just like skeptics have an agenda so do have para-researchers, and they where hell bent on proving superpowers real. Amy analysis of how the experiments where conducted reveal that sensory leak, fraud, magician tricks and more could have been involved in the production of the phenomena. That's why when skeptics tried to recreate remote viewing tests they all failed, because they employed much better blinding and safety protocols. This is also clearly shown by how Dean Radin, chief scientist at IONS, can even take into consideration as some sort of evidence a spoon being bent that was given to him by the claimant. That is plain wrong, no research can be conducted that way. Same with Ninel Kulagina being alowed hours alone in hotel rooms, or being even tested at her home, allowing for massiva fraud and tricks being set.

2) If any superpower were ever found out, it would have already fundamentally altered our scientific paradigm and worldview. Yet nothing like that happened, not even after the US Govt. Spending millions of dollars into the Stargate program. If no evidence of superpowers has been found in 50+ years of research, I can say that probably they don't exist.

3) failing into standard research, parapsychologists turned their experiments into messy and chaotic "quantum probabilty" experiments, micro-PK and so on. This makes everything so complicated that results can easily be a product of chance or flawed research methodology, but it also makes the experiment impossibile to outright deny by skeptics. It's a tactic to just stop criticism.

4) Randi's challenge would have been claimed if superpowers were real. All I heard about why the challenge wouldn't be a good test is "Randi is evil and a liar", but there is no proof the challenge itself was rigged. If you can remote view stuff, you either do it or you don't, that is what Randi was proposing. And nobody managed to do it. Testing remote viewing is easy, just throw a 100 sided dice in box while the claimant is an another room, then on the phone ask him for the result. If he starts getting the correct result often, then Remote Viewing must be at work. Randi's challenge would have worked like this, instead of the deeply flawed parapsychological tests that allow for either massive chance guessing or sensory leak. (EDIT:  about a thousand persons took part into randi's challenge, and none managed to claim it. And a great deal of famous, TV mediums making loads of money out of their abilities flat out refused. So much for superpowers.)

Meanwhile, NDEs don't come from people claiming superpowers. It's regular joes and janes. No people asking for 200+ dollars for a seance, no magic spoon bending in TV, no online courses to become a psychic. And the amount of verified perception, coming from different sources and studied by actual MDs is massive

Ok, I'm back. So here is why I believe that all PK and remote viewing is fake:

1) The experiments were biased. Just like skeptics have an agenda so do have para-researchers, and they where hell bent on proving superpowers real. Amy analysis of how the experiments where conducted reveal that sensory leak, fraud, magician tricks and more could have been involved in the production of the phenomena. That's why when skeptics tried to recreate remote viewing tests they all failed, because they employed much better blinding and safety protocols. This is also clearly shown by how Dean Radin, chief scientist at IONS, can even take into consideration as some sort of evidence a spoon being bent that was given to him by the claimant. That is plain wrong, no research can be conducted that way. Same with Ninel Kulagina being alowed hours alone in hotel rooms, or being even tested at her home, allowing for massiva fraud and tricks being set.

2) If any superpower were ever found out, it would have already fundamentally altered our scientific paradigm and worldview. Yet nothing like that happened, not even after the US Govt. Spending millions of dollars into the Stargate program. If no evidence of superpowers has been found in 50+ years of research, I can say that probably they don't exist.

3) failing into standard research, parapsychologists turned their experiments into messy and chaotic "quantum probabilty" experiments, micro-PK and so on. This makes everything so complicated that results can easily be a product of chance or flawed research methodology, but it also makes the experiment impossibile to outright deny by skeptics. It's a tactic to just stop criticism.

4) Randi's challenge would have been claimed if superpowers were real. All I heard about why the challenge wouldn't be a good test is "Randi is evil and a liar", but there is no proof the challenge itself was rigged. If you can remote view stuff, you either do it or you don't, that is what Randi was proposing. And nobody managed to do it. Testing remote viewing is easy, just throw a 100 sided dice in box while the claimant is an another room, then on the phone ask him for the result. If he starts getting the correct result often, then Remote Viewing must be at work. Randi's challenge would have worked like this, instead of the deeply flawed parapsychological tests that allow for either massive chance guessing or sensory leak. (EDIT:  about a thousand persons took part into randi's challenge, and none managed to claim it. And a great deal of famous, TV mediums making loads of money out of their abilities flat out refused. So much for superpowers.)

Meanwhile, NDEs don't come from people claiming superpowers. It's regular joes and janes. No people asking for 200+ dollars for a seance, no magic spoon bending in TV, no online courses to become a psychic. And the amount of verified perception, coming from different sources and studied by actual MDs is massive

Raf999

Thanks, but I'm sure most of us have seen those kinds of assertions many times before. I'm sorry, but I don't think they are based on sufficient knowledge of the evidence to be effective.

I don't find this kind of scepticism surprising. But what I do find surprising in your case is that - if I understand correctly - it's coupled with a belief in veridical NDEs. This is what I was interested to know about - if you believe veridical NDEs are possible, why do you think remote viewing is impossible?

Raf999

Thanks, but I'm sure most of us have seen those kinds of assertions many times before. I'm sorry, but I don't think they are based on sufficient knowledge of the evidence to be effective.

I don't find this kind of scepticism surprising. But what I do find surprising in your case is that - if I understand correctly - it's coupled with a belief in veridical NDEs. This is what I was interested to know about - if you believe veridical NDEs are possible, why do you think remote viewing is impossible?

Because we have a really high number of veridical NDEs, studied by competent MDs and currently being researched in hospitals. Of course, it could all be fake, but it still looks pretty convincing for now.

Also, NDEs are "single shot" events, something that normally can't be reproduced. So this would explain why remote viewing in NDEs would have passed under mainstream science radar, they hare hard to research and can't nornally be reproduced. Classic remote viewing, with a psychic, is the opposite. There is a dude claiming that he has super powers and can replicate it (nearly) at will. So testing would be really easy, you need a box, a dice, two rooms and a couple people to watch over the experiment. Yet, nobody managed to perform a test as simple as that. If in 50 years you can't even provo something so simple, then it's probably fake.

Because we have a really high number of veridical NDEs, studied by competent MDs and currently being researched in hospitals. Of course, it could all be fake, but it still looks pretty convincing for now.

Also, NDEs are "single shot" events, something that normally can't be reproduced. So this would explain why remote viewing in NDEs would have passed under mainstream science radar, they hare hard to research and can't nornally be reproduced. Classic remote viewing, with a psychic, is the opposite. There is a dude claiming that he has super powers and can replicate it (nearly) at will. So testing would be really easy, you need a box, a dice, two rooms and a couple people to watch over the experiment. Yet, nobody managed to perform a test as simple as that. If in 50 years you can't even provo something so simple, then it's probably fake.

It sounds as though what you're really saying is that remote viewing with 100% precision and accuracy isn't possible.

Not that remote viewing isn't possible.

It sounds as though what you're really saying is that remote viewing with 100% precision and accuracy isn't possible.

Not that remote viewing isn't possible.

My idea is that either you can do something, or you can't. If you can't do the remote viewing very often with good accuracy then it can be either chance or whatever else. Maybe even precognition, I really don't know.

Sadly, as far as I am aware, even moderate results were not achieved. Stargate program had extrnsive founding in a crazy time where the US Govt was ready to spend on absurd things yet... it did nothing. The results were middling at best and most of them were tied to chance more than anything.

Then there is Randi's Challenge, all failed it and many famous psychic and mediums backed away from it. Why? Are you scared of getting your superpowers tested? If somebody can point me at how the Challenge was rigged I'll be happy to read it. Just don't give me the old "he said he always has an out" because that citation has been cut short, he said "I always have an out: I'm right!"

Instead, no NDEr could ever take part into the challenge, nor would they want to do it. NDEs are a weird and interesting phenomena but aren't claimed superpowers that have been researched for decades without results and often easily debunked by skeptics.

My idea is that either you can do something, or you can't. If you can't do the remote viewing very often with good accuracy then it can be either chance or whatever else. Maybe even precognition, I really don't know.

I think you need to do a lot more reading about parapsychology.

I think you need to do a lot more reading about parapsychology.

What kind of reading? All studies I find are conducted by people thinking that Uri could have been a real psychic, that testing Kulagina in hotel rooms was good research or that a spoon given in a spoon bending party is good anectodal evidence. Why should I trust any papers made by these people?