The Intelligence Behind Evolution?

I'm curious. Nobody seems to have commented on my question of how (in a little detail) can some sort of "bottom up" distributed intelligence generated by all life, in particular primitive organisms like bacteria, produce the actual real-world example I presented of high levels of design that did actually happen suddenly somehow in the early Cambrian. The question is, how exactly would apparently vague ideas about a "bottom up" intelligence in primitive life specifically apply to the apparently intelligent process of some sort that must have originated the very complex and interlaced Arthropod body plan as I described it? What are some arguments against my conclusion that the intelligence involved must have been sentient focused conscious intelligence of some kind? Nobody seems to agree, but there haven't been any rejoinders. 

Well it depends if Psi requires more than desire. We have some evidence that Psi doesn't need to move about in the world like a force or ectoplasmic limb.

So the desire to survive might be enough to make genetic changes, and if Psi works better under certain environmental conditions (extending all the way, at least, to the movement of our entire galaxy) it seems possible if could work well enough to produce an explosion in design types.

Then again, maybe not, maybe some other entities played around with these bodies.

There are questions here about such things as the Cambrian explosion which have resonances in our everyday human lives. Or at least in mine, I really can't speak for anyone else. I'm often struck, reflecting with the luxury of hindsight, how I struggled with this or that, yet at various times in my life, one might say almost all of them, things have just dropped neatly into place. Almost as if orchestrated. I was reflecting recently on the many different places I've lived, sometimes very briefly, sometimes for longer, and things sometimes seemed to materialise out of nothing. For example I found myself a place on a college course and then I needed somewhere to live. It was hard, there was nothing. Then somehow at the last moment, a beautiful place became available, very close to the college, and just seemed to drop into my lap. Too many times, things have just dropped neatly into place. I'm left thinking things are somehow orchestrated. But that would mean we are all engaged in some kind of dance, we move gracefully around, engaging with this partner and then that, all of our lives neatly connecting like giant gear wheels meshing into place.

Off topic? Well, I don't have answers. It seems there is some sort of organising intelligence, something which is responsive to our needs. I don't buy the deterministic arguments. As our choices and desires lead us, so the world adapts itself to us. And leads us all on a merry dance. Where, what and how this organising force is, I can't say. I feel we are active participants, yet at the same time it is bigger than I can comprehend.

There are questions here about such things as the Cambrian explosion which have resonances in our everyday human lives. Or at least in mine, I really can't speak for anyone else. I'm often struck, reflecting with the luxury of hindsight, how I struggled with this or that, yet at various times in my life, one might say almost all of them, things have just dropped neatly into place. Almost as if orchestrated. I was reflecting recently on the many different places I've lived, sometimes very briefly, sometimes for longer, and things sometimes seemed to materialise out of nothing. For example I found myself a place on a college course and then I needed somewhere to live. It was hard, there was nothing. Then somehow at the last moment, a beautiful place became available, very close to the college, and just seemed to drop into my lap. Too many times, things have just dropped neatly into place. I'm left thinking things are somehow orchestrated. But that would mean we are all engaged in some kind of dance, we move gracefully around, engaging with this partner and then that, all of our lives neatly connecting like giant gear wheels meshing into place.

Off topic? Well, I don't have answers. It seems there is some sort of organising intelligence, something which is responsive to our needs. I don't buy the deterministic arguments. As our choices and desires lead us, so the world adapts itself to us. And leads us all on a merry dance. Where, what and how this organising force is, I can't say. I feel we are active participants, yet at the same time it is bigger than I can comprehend.

You know, the exact same thought occurred to me too when I started this thread. I wasn't convinced it was relevant so I didn't mention it but it is interesting that we both made the connection. It is complicated, almost as though there is a general plan (a Matrix-like consensus reality) while at the same time there is free will to operate within the Matrix. But the "plan" seems to make sure I have the means and facilities to carry on with my life. I've lost count of the number of times I have been in need of a new place to live or the means to travel somewhere or to pay for something and then it all, as you say, seems to fall into place.

Well it depends if Psi requires more than desire. We have some evidence that Psi doesn't need to move about in the world like a force or ectoplasmic limb.

So the desire to survive might be enough to make genetic changes, and if Psi works better under certain environmental conditions (extending all the way, at least, to the movement of our entire galaxy) it seems possible if could work well enough to produce an explosion in design types.

Then again, maybe not, maybe some other entities played around with these bodies.

The question of whether psi could be the creative source behind evolution brings up the major conclusion of ID: that the source of the large amounts of complex specified information (CSI) constituting the intricate designs of living organisms simply must be an intelligence of some sort. An intelligence that can imagine, reason, go through logical analyses, etc. all akin to human design processes. Certainly in our world the only source of large amounts of CSI that has ever been actually observed is human intelligence. 

Could psi literally conjure up intricate complex designs out of nothing? I am skeptical that is a feat possible to it, despite the other seemingly impossible phenomena that indeed can be produced by it. Like clairvoyance, telepathy, psychokinesis, spiritual healing, psycho-temporal phenomena. The thing is, none of these paranormal phenomena involve literally creating complex information from nothing. They are the sensing of it at a spatial or temporal distance, or in other minds alive or physically dead. But create it from nothing? I don't think so. 

Of course there have been cases like that of "Patience Worth" producing incredible volumes of brilliantly intelligent and artful literature by some form of automatism as fast as it could be written or dictated, but this appears to be an extraordinary manifestation of the mystery of human creativity, where there is some human agent (alive or dead) doing the artistic creation. Not primitive organisms.

The question of whether psi could be the creative source behind evolution brings up the major conclusion of ID: that the source of the large amounts of complex specified information (CSI) constituting the intricate designs of living organisms simply must be an intelligence of some sort. An intelligence that can imagine, reason, go through logical analyses, etc. all akin to human design processes. Certainly in our world the only source of large amounts of CSI that has ever been actually observed is human intelligence.

Well I think the amount of complexity in the information is itself up for debate? And how far the organism has to go in the levels of information.

For example if we assume ID is right about CSI, then perhaps in the long history of the universe some entities elsewhere achieved this in a time-span that did not require intervention. If that information is stored in, say, a Morphic Field then each subsequent evolutionary chain in the universe might have less distance to travel between forms. At least if they can access the Morphic record.

OTOH maybe spirits were goofing off or doing a[n] art show and thus caused the Cambrian Explosion. Or the evolutionary path hit a trigger in the Simulation program, or maybe the Fine Tuner(s?) intervened and made the adjustements...

Of course there have been cases like that of "Patience Worth" producing incredible volumes of brilliantly intelligent and artful literature by some form of automatism as fast as it could be written or dictated, but this appears to be an extraordinary manifestation of the mystery of human creativity, where there is some human agent (alive or dead) doing the artistic creation. Not primitive organisms.

If we specify that the dead are still human, I feel that is stretching language somewhat. It is suggesting that creativity in the 'afterlife' ( I dislike that term ) originates in physical humans. Perhaps that has things the wrong way around?

Well I think the amount of complexity in the information is itself up for debate? And how far the organism has to go in the levels of information.

For example if we assume ID is right about CSI, then perhaps in the long history of the universe some entities elsewhere achieved this in a time-span that did not require intervention. 

I'm not sure that you are not just being deliberately contrarian here Sci. The inner workings of a single cell are hugely complex. The "design" of a feather is breathtakingly elegant. I know it is a favourite jibe of the neo-darwinists to respond to that as being an argument from incredulity but how else can one look at it? I have never seen a detailed step-by-step account of how such elegance and complexity can come about by means of selection from random mutations. I've seen lots of assertions that it can be accounted for that way - or that it must be - but it seems to me that each improvement requires an incredibly fortunate sequence of mutations, all without purpose and many of them adding to a "design" that could not work without some or all of the other fortunate mutations appearing at the same time. 

As the great Robert Anton Wilson observed so brilliantly - coincidence, coincidence, coincidence ... this is the mantra of the materialists. The trouble is that the coincidences seem to be highly coordinated which, in itself, is the most unlikely coincidence. This discussion and the other thread here, plus the long running argument over at Skeptiko for all those years have done nothing to convince me that NS/RM can explain more than the most rudimentary developments. Besides, the popularly quoted time spans are not an honest account either: I often see the argument that a lot can happen in four billion years but, in truth, not a lot happened for most of that time until the Cambrian explosion half-a billion years ago (and which lasted a mere 12 to 25 million years).

Lastly, we keep ignoring DNA and the origin of life - questions which are side-stepped because they don't fall under the label of evolution since life evolved from the first cells and DNA had to be present in those cells. Again, there is no satisfactory explanation of how such a massively complex and apparently programmed molecule appeared by sheer fluke. Incredulity again? You bet!

I'm not sure that you are not just being deliberately contrarian here Sci. The inner workings of a single cell are hugely complex. The "design" of a feather is breathtakingly elegant. I know it is a favourite jibe of the neo-darwinists to respond to that as being an argument from incredulity but how else can one look at it? I have never seen a detailed step-by-step account of how such elegance and complexity can come about by means of selection from random mutations. I've seen lots of assertions that it can be accounted for that way - or that it must be - but it seems to me that each improvement requires an incredibly fortunate sequence of mutations, all without purpose and many of them adding to a "design" that could not work without some or all of the other fortunate mutations appearing at the same time. 

As the great Robert Anton Wilson observed so brilliantly - coincidence, coincidence, coincidence ... this is the mantra of the materialists. The trouble is that the coincidences seem to be highly coordinated which, in itself, is the most unlikely coincidence. This discussion and the other thread here, plus the long running argument over at Skeptiko for all those years have done nothing to convince me that NS/RM can explain more than the most rudimentary developments. Besides, the popularly quoted time spans are not an honest account either: I often see the argument that a lot can happen in four billion years but, in truth, not a lot happened for most of that time until the Cambrian explosion half-a billion years ago (and which lasted a mere 12 to 25 million years).

Lastly, we keep ignoring DNA and the origin of life - questions which are side-stepped because they don't fall under the label of evolution since life evolved from the first cells and DNA had to be present in those cells. Again, there is no satisfactory explanation of how such a massively complex and apparently programmed molecule appeared by sheer fluke. Incredulity again? You bet!

Not being contrarian for the sake of it, I honestly don't feel like I know what is responsible for these evolutionary shifts. Perhaps design, perhaps some "bottom up" selection by organisms, perhaps nothing but naturalistic processes [though this wouldn't work for Consciousness so Memory, Rationality, Intentionality, Subjectivity are still missing even if CSI is explained away].

Even with Cosmic Fine Tuning, I wouldn't say I definitely know there was design in the way I know Materialism is false...which I slightly rate under my knowledge that 2+2 = 4. But there's something interesting going on with Fine Tuning as everyone agrees the constants are delicately set to allow for our kind of terrestrial organic life.

I'm actually very open to the idea that the genetic code has been edited multiple times in Earth's history. After all there seem to be spirits who've always been with us, and all those odd reports of aliens suggest beings with powers if not technology beyond our own current cappacities. I just don't know if the evidence clearly favors top-down design, but maybe in time the IDers will find something more.

 I just don't know if the evidence clearly favors top-down design, but maybe in time the IDers will find something more.

As I said in an earlier post - I don't think of it as bottom-up or top-down. I imagine a cooperative effort with feedback and action upon that feedback. I mean that there is probably some form of intelligence at the cellular level, at the level of the whole organism, at the level of the species and at the level of the spiritual. I think that the Cambrian Explosion suggests - to me at least - a kind of kick-start from the spiritual levels although I am not by any means suggesting that a Designer God enacted a Genesis story. As I have often been at pains to explain - my idea of God is all-encompassing so this is not some super-being in His workshop churning out new designs like Santa Claus and his toy factory.

As for the Alien idea - I am not dismissing that some tinkering might have taken place but I am at a loss to see why that is believable but a similar process happening on a spiritual plane is not. What if these aliens are inter-dimensional? Even closer to the idea of spiritual beings, right? I can't help but think that this is materialists doing what Lewontin urged: denying the divine a foot in the door.

As for the Alien idea - I am not dismissing that some tinkering might have taken place but I am at a loss to see why that is believable but a similar process happening on a spiritual plane is not. What if these aliens are inter-dimensional? Even closer to the idea of spiritual beings, right? I can't help but think that this is materialists doing what Lewontin urged: denying the divine a foot in the door.

 
But I mentioned spirits as an option? And "divine" means many things to different people. Some have historically shown great devotion to a landmark said to be watched over by nature spirit of some sort.

Not sure one can easily distinguish between spirits and gods, even at the level of Cosmological Fine Tuning let alone the Cambrian Explosion.