Super-Psi & some notes from Braude's Immortal Remains

Since it's in the public domain, here is the entire Lethe case from Gauld's book:


And the Ear of Dionysius case:

As the cases themselves can be quite winding, I want to reiterate the reasoning for them that Chris Carter points out clearly:

The nature of these puzzles seems to rule out telepathy between the mediums as their source. After all, if each of the mediums does not understand their own part of the message, then how could they transmit the corresponding messages that complete and solve the puzzle? A further difficulty these puzzles raise for the hypothesis of telepathy is that many of them required knowledge of the classics that far exceeded the knowledge of most of the mediums involved—but not that of the living Myers. In some of the best cases, solving the puzzles required a great deal of study on the part of the investigators. And throughout these investigations, the mediums frequently remained ignorant of what the other automatists had written.

This, then, is the scheme that the messages claim was invented on the other side in order to prove the survival of Myers and his deceased colleagues. There are many passages in the scripts that bear this out. The automatists are exhorted “to weave together” and are told that by themselves they can do little. In the script of Mrs. Verrall we find: “Record the bits and when fitted they will make the whole,” and “I will give the words between you neither alone can read but together they will give the clue he wants.”1 It is constantly claimed in the scripts that the enigmatic messages are part of an experiment designed to provide convincing evidence of survival, and that the source of the enigmatic messages is the mind of Frederic Myers or, later, of some of his deceased colleagues.

Also, in several instances there are instructions in the scripts for the automatist to send her script to one of the other automatists, or to one of the investigators. As we will see, it was such instructions that first brought two of the automatists together.

Carter, Chris. Science and the Afterlife Experience: Evidence for the Immortality of Consciousness (p. 224). Inner Traditions/Bear & Company. Kindle Edition.

I'd mentioned that is was likely the control Feda came up with the book tests, and while that fact may be in dispute it is clear that at the very least the mediums recorded the planning of the Cross-Correspondences as coming from the other side.

Carter also reproduces the thoughts of Alice Johnson, secretary of the SPR at the time:

Now, granted the possibility of communication, it may be supposed that within the last few years a certain group of persons have been trying to communicate with us, who are sufficiently well instructed to know all the objections that reasonable sceptics have urged against the previous evidence, and sufficiently intelligent to realize the full force of these objections. It may be supposed that these persons have invented a new plan—the plan of cross-correspondences—to meet the sceptic’s objections....

We have reason to believe...that the idea of making a statement in one script complementary of a statement in another had not occurred to Mr. Myers in his lifetime, for there is no reference to it in any of his written utterances on the subject that I have been able to discover...

It was not the autonomists that detected it, but a student of the scripts; it has every appearance of being an element imported from outside; it suggests an independent invention, an active intelligence constantly at work in the present, not a mere echo or remnant of individualities of the past.

Carter, Chris. Science and the Afterlife Experience: Evidence for the Immortality of Consciousness (p. 228). Inner Traditions/Bear & Company. Kindle Edition.

It's important to note that the examples given are only a portion of the cross-correspondences. I might one day make a thread getting deeper into the subject, as it would be interesting way to learn about the classics as much as it would about the depth of the SPR investigations into mediumship.

As another interesting point, here is Myers communicating through the medium Geraldine Cummings on how challenging making the cross-correspodences were:

“The inner mind is very difficult to deal with from this side. We impress it with our message.  We never impress the brain of the medium directly.  That is out of the question.  But the inner mind receives our message and sends it on to the brain. The brain is the mere mechanism.  The inner mind is like soft wax, it receives our thoughts, their whole content, but it must produce the words to clothe it.

That is what makes cross-correspondence so very difficult. We may succeed in sending the thought through, but the actual words depend largely on the inner mind’s content, on what words will frame the thought. If I am to send half a sentence through one medium and half through another I can only send the same thought with the suggestion that a part of it will come through one medium and a part through another.

We communicate an impression through the inner mind of the medium. It receives the impression in a curious way. It has to contribute to the body of the message, we furnish the spirit of it. In other words, we send the thoughts and the words usually in which they must be framed, but the actual letters or spelling of the words are drawn from the medium’s memory. Sometimes we only send the thoughts and the medium’s unconscious mind clothes them in words."

Carter, Chris. Science and the Afterlife Experience: Evidence for the Immortality of Consciousness (p. 256). Inner Traditions/Bear & Company. Kindle Edition.

One might wonder, as Braude does, why the cross-correspondences were necessary rather than just channeling one's self clearly by overshadowing a medium and speaking through her? But it seems Meyers was not capable of that from wherever he was and whatever state he was in. Perhaps that is a convenient excuse, but even if Meyers had come through directly would that really have invalidated the Super-Psi Hypothesis? Without the delivery of the cross-correspondences, there really wouldn't have been anything to challenge the Super-Psi Hypothesis as there would be no proof of an active intellect at work.

So a clear channeling of Meyer's personality by possession could add to the feel of the case, but would not add substance. After all there are other records of sitters being convinced by personality, xenoglossy, display of skills that have not put Super-Psi to rest. Even the cross-correspondences can be challenged though it suggests - as Gauld notes - some kind of telepathic committee and/or power of one medium's brain to impersonate Meyers via telepathic suggestion sent into other mediums' trance states. This would be not just his knowledge but also his particular interests in the classics. As the philosopher Curt Ducasse remarked:

"To account for such an ingenious feat of inventive and constructive activity as the purported Myers performed in this case, something different from ESP in kind, not just in degree, is indispensable; namely, either Myers’s own mind at work, or else a duplicate of it; which, however, then needs to be itself accounted for."

Carter, Chris. Science and the Afterlife Experience: Evidence for the Immortality of Consciousness (p. 248). Inner Traditions/Bear & Company. Kindle Edition.

That's it for mediumship for now. Next up is reincarnation and possession, as the line between the two is not clear in all cases...

As the cases themselves can be quite winding, I want to reiterate the reasoning for them that Chris Carter points out clearly:


I'd mentioned that is was likely the control Feda came up with the book tests, and while that fact may be in dispute it is clear that at the very least the mediums recorded the planning of the Cross-Correspondences as coming from the other side.

Carter also reproduces the thoughts of Alice Johnson, secretary of the SPR at the time:


It's important to note that the examples given are only a portion of the cross-correspondences. I might one day make a thread getting deeper into the subject, as it would be interesting way to learn about the classics as much as it would about the depth of the SPR investigations into mediumship.

As another interesting point, here is Myers communicating through the medium Geraldine Cummings on how challenging making the cross-correspodences were:


One might wonder, as Braude does, why the cross-correspondences were necessary rather than just channeling one's self clearly by overshadowing a medium and speaking through her? But it seems Meyers was not capable of that from wherever he was and whatever state he was in. Perhaps that is a convenient excuse, but even if Meyers had come through directly would that really have invalidated the Super-Psi Hypothesis? Without the delivery of the cross-correspondences, there really wouldn't have been anything to challenge the Super-Psi Hypothesis as there would be no proof of an active intellect at work.

So a clear channeling of Meyer's personality by possession could add to the feel of the case, but would not add substance. After all there are other records of sitters being convinced by personality, xenoglossy, display of skills that have not put Super-Psi to rest. Even the cross-correspondences can be challenged though it suggests - as Gauld notes - some kind of telepathic committee and/or power of one medium's brain to impersonate Meyers via telepathic suggestion sent into other mediums' trance states. This would be not just his knowledge but also his particular interests in the classics. As the philosopher Curt Ducasse remarked:


That's it for mediumship for now. Next up is reincarnation and possession, as the line between the two is not clear in all cases...

I'm curious. Considering the contorted and contrived "explanations" that super-psi advocates have to resort to to account for the best mediumship cases especially the cross-correspondences and drop-in cases, it would seem that the degree of contortedness and contrivedness necessary to account for the best veridical reincarnation cases and especially NDEs will have to exceed any conceivable reasonable limits of credibility. Do you agree, or do you actually think super-psi has any chance at all when confronted with these types of empirical evidence for the real existence of a spiritual realm, souls and an afterlife? 

Other than, that is, the ultimate last resort of the materialist pseudo-skeptics, the position that these things are a priori impossible and that therefore following Sherlock Holmes' dictum, anything at all that remains no matter how unlikely must be the answer, no detailed analysis and study of the evidence required. That response was actually resorted to by Reber and Alcock responding to Cardena's paper in the American Psychologist.

Do you agree, or do you actually think super-psi has any chance at all when confronted with these types of empirical evidence for the real existence of a spiritual realm, souls and an afterlife?

Oh I've never been a fan of Super-Psi, I just want to try and give it something of a fair hearing. I also never knew some of these fascinating details - like the George Chapman case and the Correspondences - so I figure I'd finish the rest: Apparitions, possessions, reincarnation, NDEs, and possibly circling back to cases like Patience Worth & Seth though they don't have any evidential basis [in the sense of some information we can verify as attached to a pre-existing person].

But yeah, I'd say the weaker mediumship - and perhaps a few possession and apparition cases - are the best cases for something like Super-Psi...the really good cases stretch the idea of Psi manifesting via subpersonalities pulling clever tricks to the breaking point.

3. As we don't know have a mechanism for Psi, or even a set of natural laws to describe its limitations, we cannot even rule out the "Super" part.

I acknowledge a model for phenomena called Psi and have a firm position about communication outcomes occurring without a manifest signal.  Because this model is a positive assertion, negative assertions, based on the rejection of the current paradigm are not very interesting to me.

That said - my humble opinion is that super-psi is not worth very much study, compared to anomalous information transfer.

Do you agree, or do you actually think super-psi has any chance at all when confronted with these types of empirical evidence for the real existence of a spiritual realm, souls and an afterlife? 

While truly enjoying your posts, I am confused with the above claim.

 What is the empirical method?

An empirical method involves the use of objective, quantitative observation in a systematically controlled, replicable situation, in order to test or refine a theory.

Information sciences - both linguistic and formal (bits and bytes) - do contribute to understanding the patterns of reality.

 Quasi-empirical methods are methods applied in science and mathematics to achieve epistemology similar to that of empiricism (thus quasi- + empirical) when experience cannot falsify the ideas involved. Empirical research relies on empirical evidence, and its empirical methods involve experimentation and disclosure of apparatus for reproducibility, by which scientific findings are validated by other scientists. Empirical methods are studied extensively in the philosophy of science, but they cannot be used directly in fields whose hypotheses cannot be falsified by real experiment (for example, mathematics, philosophy, theology, and ideology). Because of such empirical limits in science, the scientific method must rely not only on empirical methods but sometimes also on quasi-empirical ones. The prefix quasi- came to denote methods that are "almost" or "socially approximate" an ideal of truly empirical methods.

It is unnecessary to find all counterexamples to a theory; all that is required to disprove a theory logically is one counterexample. The converse does not prove a theory; Bayesian inference simply makes a theory more likely, by weight of evidence.

What evidence specifically do you think is empirical for Psi?

While truly enjoying your posts, I am confused with the above claim.

Empirical evidence is information that verifies the truth (which accurately corresponds to reality) or falsity (inaccuracy) of a claim. In the empiricist view, one can claim to have knowledge only when based on empirical evidence (although some empiricists believe that there are other ways of gaining knowledge).  (Wiki)

There is ample veridical empirical evidence for the reality of reincarnation and of NDEs as experiences that are evidently what they seem, experiences of a self that can among other things transition from being a previous human person to being a current living human person along with accurately remembering details of the previous person and life and their manner of death, separate from the physical brain, observe physical surroundings and distant locations while the physical brain is dysfunctional, occasionally meet deceased family members or friends that were not known to be deceased, and be transformed in personality for life by the experience. 

Veridical refers to independently investigated verified details in accounts of the experiences, such as for reincarnation cases, childrens' memories of their last life and traumatic death where there had been no contact between the families separated by great distance and time, and in NDEs accounts of the experiences including for example remembered details of emergency room doctors, treatments, etc. observed from an elevated position in the room, accounts of distant observations of family members, accounts of meeting loved ones not known to be deceased, and long term profound personality changes, all but the last experienced while the brain was dysfunctional due to cardiac arrest or other trauma.

If reincarnation memories and NDEs are what they seem (which is what the above veridical empirical evidence indicates), there does exist some sort of a spiritual realm, something equivalent to spirits or souls, and an afterlife of at least some sort. 

And the super-psi hypothesis if extended over all afterlife-related phenomena (as it has been intended to be) is invalidated, since to extend super-psi by subconscious sub-personalities to attempt to explain away all this would have to be ridiculously contrived, complicated and implausible to account for the reported personal experiences. 

What evidence specifically do you think is empirical for Psi?

All the innumerable "hits" and other positive results of the innumerable telepathy, telekinesis, and other test studies in parapsychology that have been conducted since the 1920s. A very formidable body of evidence for human psi functioning, albeit at a low level of effectiveness. In addition to this, all of the tests and investigations of powerful psychic and physical mediums conducted by investigators in psychical research mainly in the period of the 1880s to the 1930s.

Empirical evidence is information that verifies the truth (which accurately corresponds to reality) or falsity (inaccuracy) of a claim. In the empiricist view, one can claim to have knowledge only when based on empirical evidence (although some empiricists believe that there are other ways of gaining knowledge).  (Wiki)

All the innumerable "hits" and other positive results of the innumerable telepathy, telekinesis, and other test studies in parapsychology that have been conducted since the 1920s. A very formidable body of evidence for human psi functioning, albeit at a low level of effectiveness. In addition to this, all of the tests and investigations of powerful psychic and physical mediums conducted by investigators in psychical research mainly in the period of the 1880s to the 1930s.

I do not think that the data points gathered by the years of research rise to an empirical standard.  Assertions of effectiveness and capability - are not a semantic narrative, but can be measured in terms of the data. 

Quasi-empirical pattern analysis gives a chance to use inference modality, which is not appropriate for a strict empirical study.

I do think the Psi data is BIG.  

http://www.rogerclarke.com/EC/BDSA.html

I do not think that the data points gathered by the years of research rise to an empirical standard.  Assertions of effectiveness and capability - are not a semantic narrative, but can be measured in terms of the data. 

Quasi-empirical pattern analysis gives a chance to use inference modality, which is not appropriate for a strict empirical study.

I do think the Psi data is BIG.  

http://www.rogerclarke.com/EC/BDSA.html

I think this goes in another thread, possibly another forum?

I don't want to lose focus on the question of Super-Psi in this thread...

Psi Encyclopedia Entry on Reincarnation

There's a bunch of stuff in the entry, which includes questions about cases and methodology, but I want to focus on the main points relevant to this thread:

Most children who recall previous lives do so in the waking state, with no apparent alteration of consciousness. Sometimes memories come in dreams or nightmares, but there are usually waking memories as well. With older subjects, dreams and other altered states become more important in connection to past-life memories.134

Birthmarks are not the only physical features involved in reincarnation. Many cases have birth defects that correspond to injuries to the previous person’s body. These defects may be internal as well as external. An American boy who recalled being a policeman who died after being shot in the chest was born with severe heart disease.147 Other physical signs relate to what may be regarded as the previous person’s core identity. Girls who remember being boys or men may be of relatively large stature and their menarche may be delayed.148 Asian children who claim to have been British or American are often physically larger than other children in their families, have eyes of the European shape, and in their complexion are virtual if not actual albinos.149 Equally striking are physical differences between monozygotic twins. Gillian and Jennifer Pollock closely resembled each other when young, but only Jennifer had birthmarks. One matched a scar the sister whose life she recalled had had had, the result of an accident when she was three (two years before her death) and another was a mole on her waist where she had had a mole.150

Birthmarks and birth defects may be planned and deliberately induced. A Tlingit man said before his death that he would be recognized by certain marks on his next body and these appeared on Corliss Chotkin, Jr., who recalled events from his life.151

Psi and Super-Psi
The veridicality of many children’s past-life memories presents a problem for sociopsychological explanations such as social construction and parental guidance. Recognizing this, Stevenson considered the possibility that the children might be using extra-sensory perception (ESP) to learn about deceased persons. He could not see how ESP alone could account for the behavioural correspondences in many cases and so considered ESP plus personation, the internalization and mobilization of ESP impressions necessary to impersonate the previous person. Even this was not enough to explain the psychological continuity children felt with the previous persons or their use of the first person in narrating their memories. In many cases, the information the children produced did not reside in the mind of any single living person and so would have had to have been assembled from multiple sources. There was also the question of motivation—why did the child zero in psychically on this particular deceased person rather than another?248

Another problem with the ESP (or psi) explanation is that when and how children express their memories more closely resembles memory than psi. Children’s memories are often triggered by things they encounter, as occurs often with memory of the present life. Many children have an easier time recognizing people in old photographs than they do people and places that have changed substantially since the previous person’s death. Moreover, the children’s mistakes suggest memory more than they do psi: It is hard to understand why children should make more errors when deaths are violent if they were employing psi, nor would one expect to find unsolved cases, if psi were at play.249

These difficulties have not kept some parapsychologically-oriented critics from favoring a psi explanation of the cases. Chari thought that psi might become involved in paramnesia as well as less distorted memories.250 Roll, similarly, believed that he could discern psychic conduits for information in some reincarnation cases.251 However, in order to account for the behavioural and physical features of the cases, psi would have to be not only unusually extensive, but unusually complex. Unusually extensive or complex psi is called super-psi, because it is beyond anything that has been reported in spontaneous cases or demonstrated in laboratory experiments.252 

Stephen Braude, especially, has been keen on arguing for the possibility of a complex super-psi as a way of explaining reincarnation case phenomena. Braude believes that super-psi deployed in altered states of consciousness could explain not only how children are accessing information about deceased persons but also how they are acquiring language and other skills.253 He explains physical features in the following way: After they see the birthmarks on a newborn, members of its family reach out through psi to find a deceased person with bodily features matching those marks, acquire information about that life, and pass it on psychically to the child, shaping his behaviours in the process. Alternatively, a member of the previous person’s family psychically locates a child with the appropriate birthmarks, then psychically transfers information about the previous person to him or her.254 These conjectures go well beyond anything that psi is known to achieve and are purely hypothetical.

For me this is really hard to fathom, as the idea of birthmarks matching wounds from a previous life is something I'd never heard about in Indian culture and only from this research by Stevenson.

It also has the feel of conspiracy, in the sense that no matter the evidence there is always some way to make it fit a Super-Psi explanation. But before we saw some credibility with regard to Super-Psi manifesting only in a trance state, but what is the reasoning here for why Super-Psi is not occurring on a more daily basis?

For example if Psi can copy over not just factual knowledge but skills, why doesn't the poorer family's parents copy over some great mathematical ability or at least the ability to be an accountant? Surely this is better than scanning for a rich dead person and sticking their memory and personality into their newborn child?

But again we also come to the evolutionary argument - if Super-Psi is possible in a non-trance state within the parents of the newborns or within the [loved ones of the] deceased why wasn't it selected for by evolution? It's again hard to see this as plausible without some recourse to intelligent design which then just gives us the kind of spirit realm which tilts the evidence back to Survival.