Super-Psi & some notes from Braude's Immortal Remains

Seems like Braude leans slightly more toward Survival, primarily due to transplant cases (some of which were covered in this thread & also this other thread) ->

I'm not too impressed by Braude's views on this for several reasons.

Firstly he seems to take an excessively skeptical doubting stance regarding NDEs' evidentiality of survival (we have for a long time here gone over all the major reasons why it is very highly probable). I wonder if he has studied that well-known compilation of veridical cases - The Self Does Not Die. 

Secondly, he doesn't seem to be aware of the reasons we have discussed in this thread why super psi or LAP is a very poor "explanation" for some aspects of NDEs, reincarnation memories and and to a limited extent, mediumistic communications. I outlined some of these in my posts, especially the fact that super psi can explain anomalous information coming through in these paranormal phenomena, but super psi cannot explain these phenomena having as a prominent feature actual personal experiences not just information coming through. To explain the latter phenomenon LAP would have to be able not just to dig up obscure information, but also to monkey with the NDEr's consciousness in a deep and spiritually meaningful way.  

Other factors he ignores include the Occam's razor argument and the point that in the case of mediumistic communications for LAP to be true the medium must be subconsciously fooling his/her self into having the strong impression of communicating with a deceased personality. It is hard to imagine why the medium should do that.

I'm not too impressed by Braude's views on this for several reasons.

Firstly he seems to take an excessively skeptical doubting stance regarding NDEs' evidentiality of survival (we have for a long time here gone over all the major reasons why it is very highly probable). I wonder if he has studied that well-known compilation of veridical cases - The Self Does Not Die. 

Secondly, he doesn't seem to be aware of the reasons we have discussed in this thread why super psi or LAP is a very poor "explanation" for some aspects of NDEs, reincarnation memories and and to a limited extent, mediumistic communications. I outlined some of these in my posts, especially the fact that super psi can explain anomalous information coming through in these paranormal phenomena, but super psi cannot explain these phenomena having as a prominent feature actual personal experiences not just information coming through. To explain the latter phenomenon LAP would have to be able not just to dig up obscure information, but also to monkey with the NDEr's consciousness in a deep and spiritually meaningful way.  

Other factors he ignores include the Occam's razor argument and the point that in the case of mediumistic communications for LAP to be true the medium must be subconsciously fooling his/her self into having the strong impression of communicating with a deceased personality. It is hard to imagine why the medium should do that.

The Occam's Razor I think only applies to certain cases, like an apparition seen from multiple angles by multiple people. The [Super Psi argument] that the apparition is either ectoplasm made by PK or a perfectly modeled telepathic hallucination are pretty weak. But I don't think Occam's Razor generally applies, because as Braude notes Super-Psi arguably has less "entities" given it doesn't call for a spiritual realm....though I think some of the ways Super-Psi would have to work do actually end up creating a space where the dead would exist anyway...

I also don't know if mediums feeling like they are talking to the dead is the strongest argument, because IIRC the mediumship case that involved a supposedly dead person who turned out to be living might have also involved a supposed spirit talking to the medium.

Regarding personality traits, and personal feelings...I am also not sure these are strong arguments against Super Psi. I mean I think mystics are wrong when they claim there is only One Consciousness we get absorbed into, and that is a profound personal experience after all...

All that said I thought Braude's dismissal of CORTs was pretty weak. I get the feeling Braude, as an academic in the Western world, has a deep antipathy to religion. Sudduth, OTOH, seems to dislike Survival because it contradicted some aspect of his prior Christian faith and current Vedanta faith.

I mention the latter b/c I recall Braude claimed Sudduth's attempted debunking of the Leininger Case was supposedly so good that it would cast doubt on the entire field of CORT investigation, but as Tucker noted - and we even noted here - it was hardly as damning as they might want for that specific case let alone able to damage CORTs as a whole.

We also see here Braude criticizing the strength of all CORT investigation because he claims they don't take enough account of psychological factors that motivate the cases, but how does that work with Burmese children who risked being burned to death when they claimed to be reborn Japanese soldiers? Why would psychic motivation of Japanese parents or other relatives write memories onto Burmese children as opposed to, say, easily accessible newborns in Tokyo? Super-Psi advocates would be forced to take into account geography and the distance limitations, but one [of] the claims of Super-Psi is that Psi of living persons has no actual limit. (How godlike power such as "magic wind Psi" that Braude proposes squares with denial of the after life is itself a question I've not seen a Super Psi advocate answer...)

I also think another issue is Braude mentions he wants to save the Patience Worth case for a future interview, but I already know where he's going with this based on his writings. He thinks the Worth case is important because it shows the power of sub-personalities...and he might've been right save for the fact we have good reason to believe Curran made up the Patience Worth story. So it's odd to attack every CORT case in existence while not keeping up with the reality of the supposedly strongest sub-personality in history.

The Occam's Razor I think only applies to certain cases, like an apparition seen from multiple angles by multiple people. The [Super Psi argument] that the apparition is either ectoplasm made by PK or a perfectly modeled telepathic hallucination are pretty weak. But I don't think Occam's Razor generally applies, because as Braude notes Super-Psi arguably has less "entities" given it doesn't call for a spiritual realm....though I think some of the ways Super-Psi would have to work do actually end up creating a space where the dead would exist anyway...

I also don't know if mediums feeling like they are talking to the dead is the strongest argument, because IIRC the mediumship case that involved a supposedly dead person who turned out to be living might have also involved a supposed spirit talking to the medium.

Regarding personality traits, and personal feelings...I am also not sure these are strong arguments against Super Psi. I mean I think mystics are wrong when they claim there is only One Consciousness we get absorbed into, and that is a profound personal experience after all...

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LAP is all about trying to explain the veridical information that sometimes comes from paranormal experiences. As per the Hard Problem, mere information is in an existentially different realm than consciousness. Don't you think that mere information (which is what gets dug up by powerful esp in the LAP theory) is vastly different and simpler than the paranormal conscious experiences that are had by NDErs and CORT experiencers? To say that information and conscious experiences are fundamentally the same (so as to claim that CORTs and NDEs are entirely caused by LAP) seems to me to be obviously incorrect.

LAP is all about trying to explain the veridical information that sometimes comes from paranormal experiences. As per the Hard Problem, mere information is in an existentially different realm than consciousness. Don't you think that mere information (which is what gets dug up by powerful esp in the LAP theory) is vastly different and simpler than the paranormal conscious experiences that are had by NDErs and CORT experiencers? To say that information and conscious experiences are fundamentally the same (so as to claim that CORTs and NDEs are entirely caused by LAP) seems to me to be obviously incorrect.

Well I think the tricky thing with LAP is it's essentially akin to a general Simulation Hypothesis, in that you can always have an explanation on hand. Since LAP involves subconscious planning and seemingly unlimited psychic power it isn't clear what limit we can set. [Really if it wasn't for a very small number of problematic mediumship cases I don't think LAP would even be a thing. Or at least no more plausible than a Trickster God creating all Psi & Survival evidence.]

So if you have infinite Psi powers on hand can you insert memories and personality traits? It doesn't seem plausible, because we have never seen this done - AFAIK at least - outside of this context. As such I think CORTs, in their best cases, are an argument against Super Psi [as] I would include things like phobias and deep emotions as being in favor of Survival. 

However, I would also say other aspects of CORTs are stronger in being against Super Psi such as:

- The Japanese soldiers who died in Burma being born there rather than in Japan where the case is way more likely to be solved

- The issue of Sri Lankan CORTS where childrens' refusal to give their past life's full name - thus leaving the case unsolved - is concentrated if not unique to that region. (Sri Lankans, as per Michael Nahm [quoting Stevenson], don't like to give full names.)

- Replacement Reincarnation. Why would LAP write over the memories of a dying person rather than a baby?

NDEs, however, would not have the same issue [for Super Psi] as they involve a person having a spiritual experience. In fact, I actually can see Psi duplicating the life changing scenarios we find from drug trips for some people. The one exception is the few cases where multiple people see an OOBE, which IIRC happened in at least one NDE. I don't think the Super Psi explanations are very strong [for apparitions seen by multiple people from multiple angles].

Admittedly I am in agreement with Edward Kelly & Michael Nahm, that CORTs are probably the strongest Survival evidence, with the other kinds supported by their overlap with CORT cases that have In Between Life Memories.

Beyond that I think Super Psi relies too much on Psi being mysterious and so capable of anything. However once we understand what [it is about] a Person's mental character [that] cannot be captured in physical Structure, and then try to understand how Psi would work...it's harder to justify Super Psi explanations when Survival seems a much better fit metaphysically.

Well I think the tricky thing with LAP is it's essentially akin to a general Simulation Hypothesis, in that you can always have an explanation on hand. Since LAP involves subconscious planning and seemingly unlimited psychic power it isn't clear what limit we can set. [Really if it wasn't for a very small number of problematic mediumship cases I don't think LAP would even be a thing. Or at least no more plausible than a Trickster God creating all Psi & Survival evidence.]

So if you have infinite Psi powers on hand can you insert memories and personality traits? It doesn't seem plausible, because we have never seen this done - AFAIK at least - outside of this context. As such I think CORTs, in their best cases, are an argument against Super Psi [as] I would include things like phobias and deep emotions as being in favor of Survival. 

Let's look in detail at what the living agent in LAP would have to accomplish with super psychic powers if LAP is responsible for veridical NDE OBEs. Through extremely powerful ESP and other more forceful paranormal phenomena this living agent would have to not only observe the rescusitation team working below on the NDEr's body and then plant that image containing veridical informational details in the NDEr's mind, but this LAP agent would have to be able to somehow force the NDEer to experience the followon experiences in the NDE like moving through the "tunnel", coming into a place in a spiritual realm containing a very powerful loving light, and also perhaps encountering and communicating with dead loved ones. To say nothing of the long-term spiritual life changes that occur, and the sometime acquisition of various psychic talents.

These last mentioned feats of super psi inherently have to intricately penetrate into the NDEr's consciousness and modify its experience according to a plan to fool humanity into thinking that there is an afterlife, whereas the truth is that there is only annihilation of the self and consciousness upon physical death.

This is a far greater task than simply subconsciously and psychically gathering veridical information from numerous obscure sources and then planting it in the mind of the medium during a mediumistic communication, which is I think the model originally posed by advocates of LAP or super psi. In fact, such powers that are needed to be possesed by LAP are very far beyond anything ever demolnstrated in seances or in other paranormal experiences like NDEs and CORTs.

LAP is also a much more complicated explanation for these paranormal phenomena indicative of survival  than the simple and obvious explanation that there is an afterlife. This brings in Occam's Razor, which predicts that the simplest explanatory theory or hypothesis is very likely to be the truest one.

Last of all in this list of implausibilities is the matter of motivation. Why would the human agent in LAP spend all that energy and trouble in going through this charade to pull the wool over mankind's eyes, and in the first place why would the powers that be establish this reality so that this vast LAP deception could take place?

I think all these factors militate strongly in favor of the conclusion that LAP is not true.

Let's look in detail at what the living agent in LAP would have to accomplish with super psychic powers if LAP is responsible for veridical NDE OBEs. Through extremely powerful ESP and other more forceful paranormal phenomena this living agent would have to not only observe the rescusitation team working below on the NDEr's body and then plant that image containing veridical informational details in the NDEr's mind, but this LAP agent would have to be able to somehow force the NDEer to experience the followon experiences in the NDE like moving through the "tunnel", coming into a place in a spiritual realm containing a very powerful loving light, and also perhaps encountering and communicating with dead loved ones. To say nothing of the long-term spiritual life changes that occur, and the sometime acquisition of various psychic talents.

These last mentioned feats of super psi inherently have to intricately penetrate into the NDEr's consciousness and modify its experience according to a plan to fool humanity into thinking that there is an afterlife, whereas the truth is that there is only annihilation of the self and consciousness upon physical death.

This is a far greater task than simply subconsciously and psychically gathering veridical information from numerous obscure sources and then planting it in the mind of the medium during a mediumistic communication, which is I think the model originally posed by advocates of LAP or super psi. In fact, such powers that are needed to be possesed by LAP are very far beyond anything ever demolnstrated in seances or in other paranormal experiences like NDEs and CORTs.

LAP is also a much more complicated explanation for these paranormal phenomena indicative of survival  than the simple and obvious explanation that there is an afterlife. This brings in Occam's Razor, which predicts that the simplest explanatory theory or hypothesis is very likely to be the truest one.

Last of all in this list of implausibilities is the matter of motivation. Why would the human agent in LAP spend all that energy and trouble in going through this charade to pull the wool over mankind's eyes, and in the first place why would the powers that be establish this reality so that this vast LAP deception could take place?

I think all these factors militate strongly in favor of the conclusion that LAP is not true.

Oh I agree with you, my point is just that Super Psi believers won’t be persuaded. 

Admittedly Super Psi believers probably won’t be convinced by any argument, so it’s hard to know what to do with their claims about god-like power dependent on biological brains. 

But I do think CORTs come closest as a type of evidence to serving as a “defeater”, even if I would say specific cases of other types challenge Super Psi in varied ways:

[These are examples, not an exhaustive list.]

- The Wicklands’ work on exorcising sub-personalities, leading to the question if sub-personalities are just spirits unto themselves.

- Apparitions seen from multiple angles by multiple people. While Super Psi believers say this is e[i]ther a perfectly modeled telepathic hallucination or ectoplasm generated by PK, this seems incredibly ad hoc. 

- Drop in cases for mediumship. It seems unlikely that spirits for which no sitter has reason to make up end up showing up to make requests of the group.

- The case of the chess player not so much because of the skill Maroczy demonstrated, but rather his ignorance to questions Super Psi should easily be able to answer. You have to believe a sub-personality is cunning enough to refrain from using its god-like power in just the right ways to match Marcozy’s ignorance, against the expectations of those around him.

While I personally think NDEs provide a lot of great evidence for Survival, I don’t know if any specific NDE case is a defeater for Super Psi in the way the above examples are save those where an apparition is witnessed at the very same time the NDEr is not conscious.

In general though I’ve never seen a Super Psi believer really challenge Chris Carter’s Evolutionary Argument, that surely all this godlike power could be used to keep people alive rather than just convince them of Survival & thus should be selected for. 

It’s kind of unfortunate Trance Mediumship, with its bizarre control personalities who will be happy to make stuff up, led to Super Psi gaining an inordinate amount of credibility. OTOH without Trance Mediumship we arguably would not have had the gathering of evidence we’ve gotten through Parapsychology. So I guess the Trickster strikes again heh…

I found this guy surprisingly convincing. The idea that the human mind contains various sub-personalities does seem a rather convincing explanation for some types of mental illness.

David

Yeah I think this is a big challenge for Super Psi, that sub-personalities that plan out - for example - reincarnation cases would make more sense as spirits themselves. [See also the above post.]

Oh I agree with you, my point is just that Super Psi believers won’t be persuaded. 

Admittedly Super Psi believers probably won’t be convinced by any argument, so it’s hard to know what to do with their claims about god-like power dependent on biological brains. 

But I do think CORTs come closest as a type of evidence to serving as a “defeater”, even if I would say specific cases of other types challenge Super Psi in varied ways:

[These are examples, not an exhaustive list.]

I added this last bit because I feared I may have given the impression these are the only cases.

There are other cases, such as the Cross Correspondences, where you have to believe one or more sub-personalities have crafted an elaborate series of puzzles to emulate the way Meyers - and later some his fellows - think. [Note that "sub-personalities" here are not akin to the long-lasting personalities in Multiple Personality cases but only showing up as existing during sittings. We need to assume a Mind can contain a sub-personality that can rigorously plan even when not active.]

This thread covers an extensive list of issues the evidence presents for Super Psi, though as noted you can no more truly falsify Super Psi than you can falsify the claim a deceptive Trickster God is faking all Psi & Survival evidence for Its own pleasure.

The really stupid thing about super-psi is that it is put forward by materialists who want to dismiss all psi - so they end up having to postulate a form of super psi just in order to refute the evidence for life after death - but in that case, what the hell do they believe?

David

The really stupid thing about super-psi is that it is put forward by materialists who want to dismiss all psi - so they end up having to postulate a form of super psi just in order to refute the evidence for life after death - but in that case, what the hell do they believe?

David

AFAIK there are no Materialists in the public sphere that put forth Super Psi explanations?

Kastrup is an Idealist, Braude AFAICTell is a Neutral Monist.

Sudduth...not sure but b/c of his public declaration re: his conversion to Vedanta is probably an Idealist or Neutral Monist.

(There probably are some parapsychologists who are materialists, Radin used to be one IIRC but he seems to have left that position at the least. Tart once said back in the day he was one of very few non-Materialist parapsychologists.)