Peter Fenwick's Studies of End-of-Life-Phenomena

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(2024-10-02, 04:48 PM)sbu Wrote: You sent the wrong link. This only document 100 western cases compiled by Stevenson before 2003 (remember more than 60 million americans alone has been born since then), which according to the link "..the cases tended to be weak from an evidentiary standpoint.." which translates to ~0 "real" cases and then the James Leininiger case which seems to be the only spectular case from these two gentlemen. Can you please link to the research you refer to below?

Before you dismiss the tremendous amount of research work that went into Stevenson's and Tucker's and colleagues' investigations of apparent reincarnation cases, you had better consider that the total number of solved cases being small compared to the huge annual total number of births is completely irrelevant to the issue. Your dismissal completely ignores the power of the actual evidence collected for the considerable number of solved cases. You have to be able to plausibly debunk all of the collected evidence as some sort of combination of errors or even outright fraud, in order to avoid the clear conclusion from the investigatory evidence that the very most likely explanation is in reincarnation. This evidence would include the considerable number of birthmark/birth defect cases. Please explain each and every one of those cases away. The devil is in the details.

Consider here just one essay covering a small portion of the solved cases:

Solved Reincarnation Cases with Records Made Before Verifications

https://psi-encyclopedia.spr.ac.uk/artic...ifications


Quote:In the great majority of reincarnation cases, verifications of past-life memory claims were made and a person matching them was identified before investigators reached the scene. This article lists 33 cases in which records were made of a subject’s memory claims before they were verified. In these cases, there is no question about what subjects said about the previous life before their memories were confirmed. Some cases have written documentation of the previous person’s life and death as well, supplying another level of evidential support.

15 'Before' Cases Without Past-Life Documentation

Dilukshi Nissanka (Sri Lanka)*
Duminda Ratnayake (Sri Lanka)
Gnanatilleka Baddewithana (Sri Lanka)*
Imad Elawar (Lebanon)
Indika Guneratne (Sri Lanka)
Iranga Jayakody (Sri Lanka)*
Jagdish Chandra (India)
Kemal Atasoy (Turkey)*
Kumkum Verma (India)*
Prabhu (India)
Shanti Devi (India)
Sunder Lal (India)
Sunita Chandak (India)*
Swarnlata Mishra (India)*
Thusitha Silva (Sri Lanka)

18 'Before' Cases with Past-Life Documentation

Ajendra Singh Chauhan (India)*
Bishen Chand Kapoor (India)*
Chatura Buddika Karunaratne (Sri Lanka)
Christina K (Netherlands)
EC (France)
James Leininger (USA)*
Jenny Cockell (Charles Savage) (UK)
Jenny Cockell (Mary Sutton) (UK)
Ruprecht Schulz (Germany)
Ryan Hammons (USA)*
Rylann O’Bannion (USA)*
Subashini Gunasekera (Sri Lanka)*
Sujith Lakmal Jayaratne (Sri Lanka)*
Sunita Khandelwal (India)
Takeharu (Japan)
Thusita Silva (Sri Lanka)*
Will (Wilhelm Emmerich) (USA)
Will (Wilhelm Schmidt) (USA)
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@nbtruthman 
It's not about dismissing anything. It's a call for more honesty and less exaggeration on PsienceQuest. People don’t rise in droves every day from cardiac arrest, reporting confirmed events while outside their bodies. Kindergarten classrooms aren’t full of children talking about past lives. Quantum physics does not prove that consciousness is fundamental. I recognize there are a few NDE cases suggestive of extracorporeal consciousness, and extremely few strong cases in the Western world that are suggestive of reincarnation.
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(2024-10-03, 06:53 AM)sbu Wrote: @nbtruthman 
It's not about dismissing anything. It's a call for more honesty and less exaggeration on PsienceQuest. People don’t rise in droves every day from cardiac arrest, reporting confirmed events while outside their bodies. Kindergarten classrooms aren’t full of children talking about past lives. Quantum physics does not prove that consciousness is fundamental. I recognize there are a few NDE cases suggestive of extracorporeal consciousness, and extremely few strong cases in the Western world that are suggestive of reincarnation.

This is exactly right, and it's an important point to made. When we are there looking at the research, reading the pages, hanging out here on this forum or others it's easy to sit back and go this is the way things are because of the evidence we're exposed to. But the evidence has weaknesses, it has it's weird parts and there's not as much of it out there as what we sometimes remember there being. We aren't a bunch of true believers here who have to exagerrate claims and Sbu definitely isn't out here dismissing anyone or anything. It's a good point to make that this is the evidence we have, no more no less and this is its pros and cons.
(2024-10-02, 04:48 PM)sbu Wrote: You sent the wrong link. This only document 100 western cases compiled by Stevenson before 2003 (remember more than 60 million americans alone has been born since then), which according to the link "..the cases tended to be weak from an evidentiary standpoint.." which translates to ~0 "real" cases and then the James Leininiger case which seems to be the only spectular case from these two gentlemen. Can you please link to the research you refer to below?

Are you really go to strawman this to being "~0 real cases"??? You're basically dismissing cases based on a highly arbitrary standard of evidence that you haven't even defined.

Again, you have a shocking and concerning habit of taking snippets out of their full context...

Quote:Stevenson then published a book of European cases in 2003.29 Among others, it included 21 child cases he had studied, nine from the UK and the rest from various countries on the continent. Though the cases tended to be weak from an evidentiary standpoint, they did demonstrate that the phenomenon occurs in cultures without a general belief in reincarnation.
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.”
~ Carl Jung


(2024-10-03, 06:53 AM)sbu Wrote: @nbtruthman 
It's not about dismissing anything. It's a call for more honesty and less exaggeration on PsienceQuest. People don’t rise in droves every day from cardiac arrest, reporting confirmed events while outside their bodies. Kindergarten classrooms aren’t full of children talking about past lives.

But you clearly are dismissing all of these cases, apparently because you presume that if it were "legitimate" there should be cases everywhere, that it should be "obvious" ~ a standard of evidence that is impossibly high by any consensus. In science, we only need a few good examples of something for there to be evidence that they exist. And there are far more than a handful of cases of reincarnation and past-life memories ~ the analyzed cases suggest very strongly than reincarnation favours no culture, and is universal among human cultures.

The difference is in the cultures that encourage children to talk about their memories versus those that dismiss and ignore them, leaving those memories to be deemed irrelevant and unimportant in the child's highly influential mind.

(2024-10-03, 06:53 AM)sbu Wrote: Quantum physics does not prove that consciousness is fundamental.

Good thing science doesn't work on "proof" then ~ but you should know this already, surely. Consciousness is strongly demonstrated to be far more fundamental than physical matter. Quantum stuff is not actually "physical" in any sense that we know of it.

(2024-10-03, 06:53 AM)sbu Wrote: I recognize there are a few NDE cases suggestive of extracorporeal consciousness

Hmmmm
Quote:The meaning of EXTRACORPOREAL is occurring or based outside the living body
Do you mean to imply that you think NDEs happen only to people whose bodies are still alive...?

(2024-10-03, 06:53 AM)sbu Wrote: and extremely few strong cases in the Western world that are suggestive of reincarnation.

So you would dismiss reincarnation simply due to lack of case studies in the West? Do you believe that reincarnation is a reality in cultures that recognize it?

There are many more than "extremely few" strong cases in the West. We must take all of the data into account on a global basis, not cherry-pick data based on regions of the world. And that total data is strongly suggestive of reincarnation not having any basis in cultural belief.
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.”
~ Carl Jung


(This post was last modified: 2024-10-03, 10:03 AM by Valmar.)
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@Valmar
You got my concern right. There’s now more than 8 billion people on the planet, awareness of these phenomenas are sky high => I would expect increased frequency of these phenomenas if there were true and not reduced frequency.
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(2024-10-03, 10:41 AM)sbu Wrote: @Valmar
You got my concern right. There’s now more than 8 billion people on the planet, awareness of these phenomenas are sky high => I would expect increased frequency of these phenomenas if there were true and not reduced frequency.

8 billion people does not equal "sky high awareness" of these phenomena, and even if were hypothetically the case, it would not lead to "increased frequency" of anything. So you are fundamentally not understanding the nature of the phenomena, given that you believe it works like this.

We have individual experiences that are under-reported for any number of reasons ~ lack of cultural and societal belief, Materialism dismissing any attempts to study them, a lack of funding for Parapsychologists to properly search for cases, parents not paying attention to their children because they're too distracted by other things, children suppressing their memories because of family or school or societal expectations, and so on.

If they happen frequently in cultures that believe in reincarnation, they ergo must also happen at the same frequency in other cultures, taking population into account. However, there is a massive difference in cultures that believe in reincarnation to those that do not, so those differences must be taken into account. However, you do not take them into account, expecting it to just be "if it's real, people would know or report" ~ as if cultural or societal biases are so easy to overcome, when deeply ingrained.

In the West, we have such a strong prevalent Materialist / Physicalist and scientific bias, such that reincarnation reports will naturally be heavily stifled and silenced. And that's precisely what we see, in such a culture. Paranormal phenomena are not uncommon ~ just suppressed by a culture and society based so strongly around Materialism and Physicalism, and a desire to not be seen as "crazy" but scientific.
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.”
~ Carl Jung


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(2024-10-03, 11:27 AM)Valmar Wrote: If they happen frequently in cultures that believe in reincarnation, they ergo must also happen at the same frequency in other cultures, taking population into account. 

Alternatively, it could be the influence of cultural surroundings that leads children to talk about these things. Small children, around 2-3 years old, often say funny things and tend to repeat what they hear from adults. Also remember it's the parents that contacted the "reincarnation" scientists so obviously there's a heavy confirmation biases going on beforehand any of these cases.

(2024-10-03, 11:27 AM)Valmar Wrote: In the West, we have such a strong prevalent Materialist / Physicalist and scientific bias, such that reincarnation reports will naturally be heavily stifled and silenced. And that's precisely what we see, in such a culture. Paranormal phenomena are not uncommon ~ just suppressed by a culture and society based so strongly around Materialism and Physicalism, and a desire to not be seen as "crazy" but scientific.

I'm shocked that anyone can convince themselves of such a convenient excuse to preserve their faith.
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(2024-10-03, 11:51 AM)sbu Wrote: Alternatively, it could be the influence of cultural surroundings that leads children to talk about these things.

And now, you're just repeating the same tired old claims that pseudo-skeptics trot out... you're "alternatives" are meaningless speculations not supported by the literature.

Children don't speak out because of "surrounding influences" ~ they do it spontaneously. It is negative cultural or societal influences, rather, that suppress children speaking about their past-life memories, as their parents or others discourage them.

(2024-10-03, 11:51 AM)sbu Wrote: Small children, around 2-3 years old, often say funny things and tend to repeat what they hear from adults.

Yes, they do, but such things are entirely unlike any of the contents of verified past-life memory cases, where spoken details can be quite unexpected, startling and sometimes shocking and upsetting for the parent. Stuff that the child never "heard" from adults in this life.

(2024-10-03, 11:51 AM)sbu Wrote: Also remember it's the parents that contacted the "reincarnation" scientists so obviously there's a heavy confirmation biases going on beforehand any of these cases.

You're presuming quite an awful lot here ~ that the parents want "attention" or something, rather than simply earnestly wanting to understand and listen to their child, allowing to speak about their memories freely.

I've read quite some interesting stuff in the pastlives, reincarnation and paranormal Reddit forums relating to past life memories in children from parents.

So, not all parents contact parapsychologists about this stuff.

(2024-10-03, 11:51 AM)sbu Wrote: I'm shocked that anyone can convince themselves of such a convenient excuse to preserve their faith.

"Excuse"? Hardly.
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.”
~ Carl Jung


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(2024-10-03, 12:05 PM)Valmar Wrote: I've read quite some interesting stuff in the pastlives, reincarnation and paranormal Reddit forums relating to past life memories in children from parents.

So, not all parents contact parapsychologists about this stuff.

Do you have some links to some threads where these claims are made? Not too long ago I searched for personal NDE accounts on Reddit and found nearly nothing and certainly nothing spectacular.

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