Personal Musings on NDE Desperation

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Not related to any big research, I thought I would just post something I was thinking about recently.

There are certainly big questions to be answered in regards to NDEs. Why doesn't everyone have one? What is their true nature? If they are indicators for a potential afterlife, what would that actually be like? Things to make your mind tick over. 

But, I think one of the more disturbing trends I find reading about survival based literature, focused mostly around NDEs, is a kind of paniced desperation for their validity. I certainly am not meaning to judge anyone and I think ndes definitely have reality to them, but one of the things that makes me uncomfortable and doubtful is when I go on places like reddit or twitter and it is filled with people nervously checking or reassuring themselves every second day if NDEs are real, valid or if they've been disproved by some new study yet. That and the absolute anxiety around things like AWARE 2, everyone nervously waiting on the edge of their seats because they're terrified any day now NDEs are just going to turn out to be all brains or something. 

I was certainly guilty of it myself, once upon a time, and every so often when I see a skeptical point I see if anyone's done a rebuttal of it to weigh up my options, but seeing other people really make me almost feel guilty for taking NDEs with a degree of validity. I like to think I do so because of the evidence that's there, but seeing these other people makes me even doubt if I'm being rational of if there's some secret seething desperation. There's certainly an interest, afterlife is a bonus, but I don't depend on it.

Was just things ticking over in my head. I suppose I should ask what your guy's opinions are on stuff like this? And if you've seen or experienced anything like it before. Skeptics too, of course, even if you don't believe NDEs to be what they seem this is definitely a thing everybody can look over at and go "jeez man calm down".
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Firstly, I wouldn't recommend Reddit even for the NDE content. It's a horrible and untrustworthy platform in my experience known for pretentious pseudo-intellectuals who often are a lot younger than they make themselves seem and aren't trustworthy. 

Returning to the topic, I am guilty of this and I still am. I think the need for validity may be due to death anxiety. It may also be due to the many militant materialists online being vocal about their non-belief, so it encourages others who may be upset or offended by this to seek reassurance. I do. And I too am nervous about AWARE 2, though I personally think that 95% of people online probably don't know that Sam Parnia even continued doing research. Plenty of people still don't even know who he is.

Of course I don't speak for everyone, but yeah. The amount of misinformation out there on NDEs as well means I'm hoping more and more the verification and validity gets the respect it deserves so this misinformation will cease to be.
(This post was last modified: 2020-11-18, 10:33 AM by OmniVersalNexus.)
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(2020-11-18, 10:06 AM)OmniVersalNexus Wrote: Firstly, I wouldn't recommend Reddit even for the NDE content. It's a horrible and untrustworthy platform in my experience known for pretentious pseudo-intellectuals who often are a lot younger than they make themselves seem and aren't trustworthy. 

Returning to the topic, I am guilty of this and I still am. I think the need for validity may be due to death anxiety. It may also be due to the many militant materialists online being vocal about their non-belief, so it encourages others who may be upset or offended by this to seek reassurance.

I think that's it for a lot of people, they need the reassurance, and people throwing doubt into it makes them really skitish about it. Maybe it's my bias about it a bit, I was always taught to squash that down when I was a kid, though I suppose you suffer for that in your own way. As for reddit, I think for the subreddit dealing with NDEs it's a critical lack of education more than trustworthiness. I don't see many people who had read things like Irreducible Mind of The Self Does Not Die, would probably do them some good.
IMO the desperation is on the other side, with those who insist all the Survival evidence is garbage. Guys like Woerlee and Sudduth stink of an unhinged need to not only disbelieve themselves but evangelize their fundamentalist positions on Survival being false.

At this point either every case is a lie, and every investigator is an idiot or "in on the trick", or at minimum the Super Psi / Living Agent Psi hypothesis is true.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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(2020-11-18, 04:38 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: IMO the desperation is on the other side, with those who insist all the Survival evidence is garbage. Guys like Woerlee and Sudduth stink of an unhinged need to not only disbelieve themselves but evangelize their fundamentalist positions on Survival being false.

At this point either every case is a lie, and every investigator is an idiot or "in on the trick", or at minimum the Super Psi / Living Agent Psi hypothesis is true.

I'd agree with your first point about the most desperation being on the other side. It is true, however, that pervasive materialist brainwashing via higher education and the media has made it a constant struggle for many to maintain a spiritual belief system- this has to be done in a constant environment of skepticism and derision. This naturally creates an atmosphere of anxiety about the real validity of NDEs for instance.  

Regarding your second point, about living agent psi being the minimum hypothesis to explain the data, I don't think there is much possibility of that. It is especially with the NDE and reincarnation data that super-psi runs into a brick wall where it just has no credibility at all in my opinion.
(This post was last modified: 2020-11-18, 05:11 PM by nbtruthman.)
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(2020-11-18, 08:37 AM)Smaw Wrote: Not related to any big research, I thought I would just post something I was thinking about recently.

There are certainly big questions to be answered in regards to NDEs. Why doesn't everyone have one? What is their true nature? If they are indicators for a potential afterlife, what would that actually be like? Things to make your mind tick over. 

But, I think one of the more disturbing trends I find reading about survival based literature, focused mostly around NDEs, is a kind of paniced desperation for their validity. I certainly am not meaning to judge anyone and I think ndes definitely have reality to them, but one of the things that makes me uncomfortable and doubtful is when I go on places like reddit or twitter and it is filled with people nervously checking or reassuring themselves every second day if NDEs are real, valid or if they've been disproved by some new study yet. That and the absolute anxiety around things like AWARE 2, everyone nervously waiting on the edge of their seats because they're terrified any day now NDEs are just going to turn out to be all brains or something. 

I was certainly guilty of it myself, once upon a time, and every so often when I see a skeptical point I see if anyone's done a rebuttal of it to weigh up my options, but seeing other people really make me almost feel guilty for taking NDEs with a degree of validity. I like to think I do so because of the evidence that's there, but seeing these other people makes me even doubt if I'm being rational of if there's some secret seething desperation. There's certainly an interest, afterlife is a bonus, but I don't depend on it.

Was just things ticking over in my head. I suppose I should ask what your guy's opinions are on stuff like this? And if you've seen or experienced anything like it before. Skeptics too, of course, even if you don't believe NDEs to be what they seem this is definitely a thing everybody can look over at and go "jeez man calm down".

I think that the desperation you talk about is only to be expected. There's a lot at stake - especially for some of us who suffer from this lifelong fear of dying. I've said this often enough here and elsewhere but that fear is not assuaged by wishful thinking or compiling a library of comforting stories about the afterlife. The only thing that matters - at least to me - is that the evidence holds up. I scrutinise the evidence, kick out anything overly sensational and anticipate studies (such as the AWARE) with a mixture of hope and trepidation. NDE evidence is, from what I can see, the best we have and I really can't imagine how that evidence can be discounted short of some grand conspiracy of medical staff and patients working together to some unfathomable end. It isn't as though there is a religious bias to these stories - there isn't (which is why American publishers insistence on including religious terms like "Heaven" in the titles is so damned annoying). 

Maybe it is irrational - I have been told as much by lots of people from friends and family to psychologists but it has been with me since childhood and that 1, 2 or 5% lingering doubt is enough to give me sleepless nights.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
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(2020-11-18, 09:13 PM)Kamarling Wrote: I think that the desperation you talk about is only to be expected. There's a lot at stake - especially for some of us who suffer from this lifelong fear of dying. I've said this often enough here and elsewhere but that fear is not assuaged by wishful thinking or compiling a library of comforting stories about the afterlife. The only thing that matters - at least to me - is that the evidence holds up. I scrutinise the evidence, kick out anything overly sensational and anticipate studies (such as the AWARE) with a mixture of hope and trepidation. NDE evidence is, from what I can see, the best we have and I really can't imagine how that evidence can be discounted short of some grand conspiracy of medical staff and patients working together to some unfathomable end. It isn't as though there is a religious bias to these stories - there isn't (which is why American publishers insistence on including religious terms like "Heaven" in the titles is so damned annoying). 

Maybe it is irrational - I have been told as much by lots of people from friends and family to psychologists but it has been with me since childhood and that 1, 2 or 5% lingering doubt is enough to give me sleepless nights.

It's very annoying, I agree. The way the subject is being trivialised/popularised is turning into a circus. I can well imagine that some hard-line sceptics are secretly quite delighted with the prospect of that.  Their work would be done for them. 

Heaven is real. Get your brochure here. My name is so and so (quadrupled barrelled) and I've had five near death experiences. The hell you say, I've had six, do you want to hear them ? This is the kind of dialogue that is sadly becoming commonplace on the net now and it's not good.

BTW I'm quite happy to cease posting NDE's if anyone thinks I'm over doing it. Just a thought.
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Same here Kamarling. I blame social media platforms and sensationalism on the Internet being mostly to blame, not to mention fundamentalist/dogmatic behaviour on both sides of the debate at times. 

And don't worry tim, I appreciate your research very much as highly informative and insightful. I myself am too scared to go looking up cases anymore as well.  Thumbs Up
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(2020-11-18, 09:32 PM)tim Wrote: It's very annoying, I agree. The way the subject is being trivialised/popularised is turning into a circus. I can well imagine that some hard-line sceptics are secretly quite delighted with the prospect of that.  Their work would be done for them. 

Heaven is real. Get your brochure here. My name is so and so (quadrupled barrelled) and I've had five near death experiences. The hell you say, I've had six, do you want to hear them ? This is the kind of dialogue that is sadly becoming commonplace on the net now and it's not good.

BTW I'm quite happy to cease posting NDE's if anyone thinks I'm over doing it. Just a thought.

I didn't get the sense that anyone would want you to stop posting them. It is just that we all have our different ways of assessing them. The trivialisation that you talk of is the consequence of this Reality TV informed society we now inhabit. Sensationalise everything.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
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Keep posting, Tim. You come up with good-quality cases that I've not seen before. Very interesting.

Myself, I guess I'm lucky to feel very relaxed over all this stuff - I went through some rough and distressing times in the past, nowadays I just glide through stuff, good times, bad times, I don't mind any more. I don't do religion, but I do pray which I think helps. And look on the bright side too.
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