Old Wisdom, Young Foolinsness.

I feel much the same way about you Laird.  _/_

I feel we should remind ourselves of this.

That we are being brave enough to discuss our potential flaws publicly. I think it’s important that we maintain some perspective on such discussions, and though our ego’s might temporarily ‘go off on one’, we seek to return to some balance. 

Though we pick at each other’s weaknesses, we should always remember the overwhelmingly ‘good’ side that we possess. It’s only my ego that ever gets personal, and he’s an idiot! 

[Laird]

You seem to me to be making a different point now. You seem now to be saying that I’m too certain, where earlier I was defending your apparent accusations of being too flexible!

No, all along my point has been about inconsistency, even if I didn't make that explicit.

Much of what you write above (which for brevity I haven't quoted) is perfectly reasonable, and if you had stated that much from the start, I would have had no cause to accuse you of inconsistency. That is to say that where we have what we consider to be good information, and where we have carefully considered an issue, we are entitled to have strong convictions of which we attempt to persuade others, whereas where we have little information or have not carefully considered an issue, then we might perhaps be cautious about expressing a (qualified) opinion, mindful that we might be ignorant or lacking in insight, and thus that our opinion might do more harm than good.

The problem (for me, at least) is that your earlier statements (which you seem to agree I paraphrased reasonably) were not nuanced in this way, but seemed to encourage an unconditional lack of conviction, lack of certainty, and general ambivalence and openness to being wrong - even though you showed strong conviction on various issues, such as Israel vs Palestine (a conviction which I heartily agree is warranted, mind you!).

I really hope you’re joking?

It was a little bit playful, much like your joke a day or two back (which I missed).

That said, the whole question of "meaningful education versus indoctrination" is one which I don't think I have a good enough understanding of to discuss/debate publicly.
As canvassed above, where we don't have enough information or have not thought carefully enough about an issue, it is perhaps most prudent not to express a firm opinion (although if the issue is consequential enough and our intuitions strong enough, we might see fit to anyway).

I feel much the same way about you Laird. _/_

Cheers, my friend.

The problem (for me, at least) is that your earlier statements (which you seem to agree I paraphrased reasonably) were not nuanced in this way, but seemed to encourage an unconditional lack of conviction, lack of certainty, and general ambivalence and openness to being wrong - even though you showed strong conviction on various issues, such as Israel vs Palestine (a conviction which I heartily agree is warranted, mind you!).

I think any confusion around ‘my thinking’ may arise (in myself as well as others) because I think it’s important to keep the door to any conclusions we might arrive at unlocked, even slightly ajar. My thinking around Israel is a perfect example of what this may mean. I am largely convinced that there are terrible wrongs being committed in Israel, for me the evidence of that is overwhelming. However, I don’t fall into (what I see as) the trap of getting too angry and emotional, thus becoming dogmatic and irrational. Rather I try to see it from an Israeli POV and having done so, I really feel that I have some understanding of why they act that way. I can separate my views on Israel, The Palestinians, The Jews, etc. 

The best way to get what I feel/think about the whole sorry mess is maybe to state the ‘facts’ as I see them currently in my mind.

For example I might think strongly that:

1)Overall, Israel treats the Palestinians very badly.
however...
I definitely have doubts about the Palestinian leadership.
I trust very few if any politicians in the UK, why should they be that different anywhere else?
Added to this...
I am very aware that Israel has the monopoly on our media, so how has that influenced my thinking about the Palestinian leadership?
2) I also think I have some understanding of how the Israeli’s might have such a fearful mindset, so that I could see the possibility of me doing the same thing if I had been born to a Zionist family.
However...
My upbringing has been such that I have a soft nature (in many ways) but I can see that my nature can be interpreted as hard too, where some of my opinions/ideas are concerned. 
Etc,etc,etc. These are just a taste of what goes on in my mind, it may all be wrong if I have misinterpreted the data, or the data has been falsified or whatever!

So I like to think I have maintained some sort of a balanced view on this topic, but I’m really pissing in the wind. This is how I see the left side of my brain processes things. The right side takes all this raw data, goes behind a locked door into a room, then five minutes later shoves a note under the door with for example the number(answer?) ‘42’ on it. In this case it might come out with a sentence something like...

‘Being born a Jew in Israel, there is a high chance of growing up with some opinions that are literally nuts, so don’t judge them too harshly’. 

All I do definitely know - is that me going with my daughter to watch a double showing of the first and second parts of A Quiet Place, getting there an hour early, sitting in an uncomfy stuffy cinema for over nearly five hours, socially distancing from others, watching a film I’d seen before and didn’t really like, before watching the latest one, right under a very loud speaker which had my right (stroke affected) arm leaping uncontrollably a foot in the air whenever yet another scary thing appeared, with my daughter laughing out loud each time - was definitely an act of unconditional love!!! 

 

Cheers, my friend.

It’s only my ego that ever gets personal, and he’s an idiot! 

On reflection, I really think this idle thought of mine may have a lot of truth to it. I ought to add, that at least in my case, any such idiocy seems to be temporary. Often lasting for a minute or two, at the very worst a few days. In cases like these, where I deem that it is not doing me any good, and in any case it’s of little consequence, I will sometimes sadly make the unemotional decision to cut the chord. (‘Unemotional’ decisions very occasionally lead to some sadness)

[Laird]

I think any confusion around ‘my thinking’ may arise (in myself as well as others) because I think it’s important to keep the door to any conclusions we might arrive at unlocked, even slightly ajar.

Yes, I intuitively understand that you intended that much, and, again, had you made it explicit, along the lines of, "We should have the courage of our convictions, even whilst being open to the possibility that those convictions are wrong", then - again - I would not have seen fit to call you out on inconsistency. In fact, I have a feeling you have made explicit on one occasion or another something like that, it's just that it was not made in the context of disavowing the contention you had on other occasions made, that we should (as I understood your claim) be unconditionally unconvinced/ambivalent, regardless of what we otherwise knew or what basis we otherwise had for strong convictions.

Also, from a moderation perspective, though I totally acknowledge my role in thoughtlessly bringing the subject up, Israel and Palestine are not legitimate subjects outside of the opt-in forums. Again, it's my fault for bringing it up, but if challenged on the presence of this subject matter in this public thread, moderators will need to act accordingly.

In fact, I have a feeling you have made explicit on one occasion or another something like that, it's just that it was not made in the context of disavowing the contention you had on other occasions made, that we should (as I understood your claim) be unconditionally unconvinced/ambivalent, regardless of what we otherwise knew or what basis we otherwise had for strong convictions.

In one way, sentences like this do my head in. (Like legal speak)

Also, from a moderation perspective, though I totally acknowledge my role in thoughtlessly bringing the subject up, Israel and Palestine are not legitimate subjects outside of the opt-in forums. Again, it's my fault for bringing it up, but if challenged on the presence of this subject matter in this public thread, moderators will need to act accordingly.

In other ways, sentences like these truly do my head in!  

(I understand though, I really do). 

[Laird]

P.S. Don't block chuck. He's only calling it as he sees it, which is all you've ever asked for.

P.S. Don't block chuck. He's only calling it as he sees it, which is all you've ever asked for.

I haven’t yet. 

Maybe, but I also want people to engage properly with me. It would help if he at least answered a few questions I asked, but it’s just become camouflaged criticism of me, then nothing until the next snipe.

Edit: I have since blocked both Chuck & Silence.

Just recently I've been watching the waves wash in and out - during the past few days the tides were very high - I guess that's what brought Chuck's postings into view. The phases of the moon and so on. Certainly the tides have subsided again. I'm not a mariner, but from a landlubber's perspective I really like those wild seas. I'm sure it's not so much fun to be riding on them.

footnote:
a) I went to the pub today
b) I was speaking literally, the real physical world, as well as metaphorically.

apologies for the interruption ... carry on.

It seems we might have found Typoz’s true identity...