Non-Cartesian Substance Dualism

[Laird]

Sorry, what is the reasoning for the difference?

That the two aren't analogous. What does consciousness temporarily ceasing during anaesthesia have to do with any implications of some people not undergoing NDEs during life-threatening events?

That the two aren't analogous. What does consciousness temporarily ceasing during anaesthesia have to do with any implications of some people not undergoing NDEs during life-threatening events?

We generalize from some people having NDEs to general Survival of at least all humans, so why wouldn't we generalize from OBEs/recollections/dreams/awakenings during anaesthesia to the fact that it seems anaesthesia does not completely shut off consciousness?

[Laird]

We generalize from some people having NDEs to general Survival of at least all humans, so why wouldn't we generalize from OBEs/recollections/dreams/awakenings during anaesthesia to the fact that it seems anaesthesia does not completely shut off consciousness?

Those are still not analogous. The generalisation in the first case isn't that the people who don't remember having NDEs actually did (inevitably) have them. That would make it analogous to the second case, but as it is, it's not.

Those are still not analogous. The generalisation in the first case isn't that the people who don't remember having NDEs actually did (inevitably) have them. That would make it analogous to the second case, but as it is, it's not.

Ah I suspect the truth is not everyone has an NDE, even where we might expect them to. However I would still generalize the NDE - at least when combined with other Survival evidence and certain philosophical considerations - to Survival meeting a "legal" standard generally.

Perhaps it's the other way around, because I wasn't asking whether you allowed the mere possibility, but whether it actually occurrs.

Well, then "allow" gave me the wrong impression. It doesn't actually "cease" proper, no. There's no evidence that it does.

The majority of those who go under general anaesthetic don't seem to undergo NDEs or OBEs, at least none that they remember, and becoming conscious in the middle of surgery suggests that prior to that, one was unconscious.

Likewise, the majority of the population also don't seem to undergo NDEs or OBEs ~ just none that they remember.

But the fact that a few individuals do have NDEs and OBEs during anesthesia should raise questions.

Being conscious in the middle of surgery is a very powerful hint that experience does not "cease" ~ it is merely suppressed, in sync with the brain. Something that has ceased doesn't just... come back for no reason.

I've been under general several times myself, and it seems to me that experience does temporarily cease.

Because that is how it appears for us mentally ~ our brains are suppressed, so consciousness also is.

But, again, if a few individuals can and do have NDEs and OBEs, then nothing has ceased ~ the NDEr and OBEr have just separated from their bodies, their minds temporarily not being influenced by the brain or the anesthesia.

You can claim that really, it doesn't, but all that is is a just-so claim that you make for ideological purposes.

Well now, that's a bit much. How about we all calm down a little?

Those are still not analogous. The generalisation in the first case isn't that the people who don't remember having NDEs actually did (inevitably) have them. That would make it analogous to the second case, but as it is, it's not.

But they still can be ~ anesthesia affects consciousness and so memory, no?

So it is perfectly logically that someone may have an NDE or OBE during anesthesia, but remember none of it due to returning to the body while the anesthesia is still active.

After all, it is known that drugs in people's bodies may well affect and distort the recollection of NDEs and OBEs. And anesthetic drugs are no different in this regard.