NDE study by Kondziella and Olsen

I think what is rather impossible is to have REM intrusions and not show up on the EEG. An Dr. Parnia is taking EEG readings of all his patients in aware II, and so far nor REM sleep patterns were detected. It was mostly flat EEGs with a few cases of seizure like activity.

Why should it be physiologically impossible for someone blind since birth to experience REM intrusion?

Dr. Long doesn’t go much into detail, but during an Skeptiko interview he states,

“You cannot explain vision to somebody totally blind from birth in terms of their remaining four senses. It’s absolutely impossible. So for them to have vision for the first time in their life, during a near-death experience, is incredible. The people that are blind, blind from birth, do not have REM intrusion. They can’t. It’s physiologically impossible. So the fact that they have typical near-death experiences, if you will, single-handedly refutes REM intrusion underlying all near-death experiences. At an absolute minimum, clearly there’s something else going on other than REM intrusion in some near-death experiences, just based on this. REM intrusion absolutely cannot explain that.”

He also mentions it in the paper Tim posted above. That, and many other reasons why the REM intrusion argument cannot explain all NDEs.


https://skeptiko.com/94-jeffrey-long-nea...-research/

Dr. Long doesn’t go much into detail, but during an Skeptiko interview he states,

“You cannot explain vision to somebody totally blind from birth in terms of their remaining four senses. It’s absolutely impossible. So for them to have vision for the first time in their life, during a near-death experience, is incredible. The people that are blind, blind from birth, do not have REM intrusion. They can’t. It’s physiologically impossible. So the fact that they have typical near-death experiences, if you will, single-handedly refutes REM intrusion underlying all near-death experiences. At an absolute minimum, clearly there’s something else going on other than REM intrusion in some near-death experiences, just based on this. REM intrusion absolutely cannot explain that.”

He also mentions it in the paper Tim posted above. That, and many other reasons why the REM intrusion argument cannot explain all NDEs.


https://skeptiko.com/94-jeffrey-long-nea...-research/

Thanks. Long says in that paper that people born blind don't have rapid eye movement when they dream. That appears to be incorrect:
https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/confe...6048.short

The question of whether the blind can experience REM intrusion of some form is still debated.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/...eir-dreams

What is not debated is that congenitally blind cannot dream visual images. They've obviously never seen anything. Vicki Umipeg, now Vicki Blazon had an NDE when she was involved in a serious car crash.. (the person giving her a lift was drunk).. and thrown out of the car.

She saw for the first time and didn't know what it was at first (it terrified her). Asked if she only normally  ever 'saw' black, she said no, I don't see anything. "No light, no shadows, no nothing, I've never been able to understand the concept of light."  

Furthermore, NDE's occur under general anaesthesia. Contrary to what many wishful thinking "sceptics" like to believe, general anaesthesia does not give patients super powers to achieve all kinds of impossible observations whilst 'under'. 
It's a dreamless drug induced reversible coma where patients are so unconscious they lose their brain stem functions (breathing etc) and have to artificially 'breathed for'. 

Pam Reynolds NDE occurred at an even deeper level of anaesthesia, burst suppression (the deepest anaesthetic state possible without killing them). She was monitored all the way through her operation and no REM intrusion or seizures were seen.

So how can REM intrusion be the cause of NDE ?  Sceptics will never give up their quest to find a materialistic explanation. Everything that's ever been proposed has been effectively refuted, but it never seems to make any difference. A new generation just comes along and we go back to square one (1975) ...are NDE's dreams ?

The question of whether the blind can experience REM intrusion of some form is still debated.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/...eir-dreams

What is not debated is that congenitally blind cannot dream visual images. They've obviously never seen anything. ...

Yes, that's based on the paper I just referred to. But I don't think it refers to REM intrusion, just REM sleep.

And actually the authors' conclusion is that the congenitally blind do produce visual images in their dreams:
“The fact that blind subjects present [rapid eye movements] and that these are correlated with visual dream recall is another result supporting our argument that they do activate visual areas during dream, being able to generate their own visual imagery.”

I don't think skeptico and Dr. Long are a reliable source of information. What I think is reliable is EEG readings. Until now, no reading in AWARE II has shown REM patterns it seems, and it didn't show up in Pam's case or mariou beuregard study too.

"Yes, that's based on the paper I just referred to. But I don't think it refers to REM intrusion, just REM sleep."

And actually the authors' conclusion is that the congenitally blind do produce visual images in their dreams:

“The fact that blind subjects present [rapid eye movements] and that these are correlated with visual dream recall is another result supporting our argument that they do activate visual areas during dream, being able to generate their own visual imagery.”



The authors 'conclusion'.

“The fact that blind subjects present [rapid eye movements] and that these are correlated with visual dream recall is another result supporting our argument that they do activate visual areas during dream, being able to generate their own visual imagery.”

Blind = not blind from birth

EDIT:  then he brings in the case of fetuses and makes a leap...."if fetuses can dream, presumably with visual imagery, without ever having visual experience, who’s to say the same cannot happen with blind subjects?" (congenitally blind)

Who's to say ? How about somebody who was born blind, Vicki Umipeg ?

The authors 'conclusion'.

“The fact that blind subjects present [rapid eye movements] and that these are correlated with visual dream recall is another result supporting our argument that they do activate visual areas during dream, being able to generate their own visual imagery.”

Blind = not blind from birth

If you follow either the link to the abstract I posted or the link to the commentary you posted yourself, you'll see that the blind subjects in the study were "congenitally blind." They are talking about people who are blind from birth.

Whatever, everything can be solved through an EEG reading, no? REM patterns should show up on it.

"If you follow either the link to the abstract I posted or the link to the commentary you posted yourself, you'll see that the blind subjects in the study were "congenitally blind." They are talking about people who are blind from birth."

The abstract article mentions both but I agree, in the study they meant the congenitally blind. Were they actually, though ? Maybe but I've been through the original paper there's no mention of how they determined this (unless I missed it) 

https://eprints.ucm.es/45054/1/Antona_Pr...E-2017.pdf

I remember reading Ring's book and it's not so easy to establish unfortunately. Were they self declared congenitally blind ? Do they have medical documentation of that ? What if the participants just assumed they were blind from birth but actually had partial sight for a period and then lost it completely, who knows, I don't but I don't think the authors of that paper can be certain ?   

Anyway,I'm not interested in pursuing it. Vicki Umipeg was documented as never having experienced sight. Her optic nerves were withered by too much oxygen in her incubator (she was premature). She says she doesn't dream visually and that's good enough for me (and she's not the only one)