NDE Research - Changes You'd Want to See

If it hadn’t been for those pesky kids I’d have proved my theory!!!! 

You've lost me there, Stan ?

Scooby Doo. 

I'll read any paper that I think might actually make sense. What I'm not going to do is take a massive diversion down a quantum coherent dead end for no good reason. Near death experience research hasn't discovered anything inconsistent with the model favoured by 99% of the people that have actually had the experience, so there is no need to. 

You seem to revel in the fact that no one has seen a target in one of the hospital studies, conveniently forgetting that this experiment is just about the most difficult one imaginable. Only one, possibly two people have even had a chance to see a target so far (Sartori's patient 10) but you would already have them give up before they've really got started ! Quite telling that isn't it.

Have you actually spoken to anyone that's had an out of body experience during cardiac arrest, veridical or not ? Why not do that and see what they have to say about your theory?  Be clear about it, so that they know exactly what you're getting at.

Inform them that they weren't really outside of themselves...that their clear conviction that they were (actually out of body), was just an illusion, made possible by the inherent ultra real information exchange of quantum coherence. See how you get on, Max. You could even take Scooby Doo with you to assist.

Unfortunately I don't think the traditional 'disembodied eyes' OBE idea fits very well with either our observations, or personal experiences Tim. I appreciate you disagree.

Unfortunately I don't think the traditional 'disembodied eyes' OBE idea fits very well with either our observations, or personal experiences Tim. I appreciate you disagree.

It's a disembodied mind, Max not eyeballs but it's a perfect fit ! They describe whatever constitutes what is real and vital about themselves, as becoming separate from their physical body which they can then (usually) clearly see, sometimes not even realising that the person they are seeing is actually them at first. if it was mental confabulation, they wouldn't wonder about who it was. Why would the mind confabulate an out of body experience with the wrong body...doesn't make sense (I know that's not your idea but most of the sceptics on here believe that)

Just like you know where you are now (presumably sitting in front of your laptop or whatever you have) they have the unshakeable conviction that they are floating around (wherever they want to go) or standing at the side of their bodies, or passing through the wall, whatever.

I know this is happening, Max, there's far too many reports. Doesn't prove life after death, never said it did but as Pim Van Lommel said, it could hardly be anything else.

Just like you know where you are now (presumably sitting in front of your laptop or whatever you have) they have the unshakeable conviction that they are floating around (wherever they want to go) or standing at the side of their bodies, or passing through the wall, whatever. I know this is happening, Max, there's far too many reports.

Yes, I understand. I just have a different way of trying to explain how the sense of 'self' may relocate during the OBE, so that I can also explain how experients may come into possession of verifiable information that they should not know about, in a way that is outside of our current scientific understanding. This idea also requires that hidden, secret, real-time visual targets cannot be recalled by experients.

Another suggestion: Direct experience comparisons. As I said in the first post, descriptions of DMT experiences don't bear a whole lot of resemblance to classic NDEs in the details, but some drug experiences do report similar phenomena; the sense of being one with the universe, or of a change in the perception of time, at least, have come up. If you could get permission (and proper safety standards), then a volunteer group of NDErs who've had sufficiently deep experiences could try DMT, ketamine, and whatever other substances have been proposed, and report on how that experience matches up with their NDE. If a majority report that they were similar or identical, then you could follow up on that; if a majority report that they weren't alike, then that's further grounds to rule out a chemical component.

Do you have any data on near death experiences related by rats ?

Nothing not already mentioned.

Nothing not already mentioned.

Okay, thanks. If you could just point out a previous reference to where a rat has reported a near death experience, that would be really helpful.

Another suggestion: Direct experience comparisons. As I said in the first post, descriptions of DMT experiences don't bear a whole lot of resemblance to classic NDEs in the details, but some drug experiences do report similar phenomena; the sense of being one with the universe, or of a change in the perception of time, at least, have come up. If you could get permission (and proper safety standards), then a volunteer group of NDErs who've had sufficiently deep experiences could try DMT, ketamine, and whatever other substances have been proposed, and report on how that experience matches up with their NDE. If a majority report that they were similar or identical, then you could follow up on that; if a majority report that they weren't alike, then that's further grounds to rule out a chemical component.

 "a volunteer group of NDErs who've had sufficiently deep experiences could try DMT, ketamine, and whatever other substances have been proposed,"

Will, I know you're probably new to all this but the vast majority of people who have had a deep NDE would not be the slightest bit interested in participating in such a venture. They don't have any doubts about what they experienced and they don't need to go there. But of course it might be better if you heard that from someone who's had one, not me.

Okay, thanks. If you could just point out a previous reference to where a rat has reported a near death experience, that would be really helpful.

That wasn't what I was posting about.. you're conflating my posts with Max's.