My final (tentative) position

1. I am a fully believing christian - not entirely fundamentalist and not entirely orthodox - that will never change.
2. Weird shit happens and nobody really knows why.  Our views are coloured more by preference than logic.
3. Psi occurs as a rare, spontaneous and irrelevant effect and nobody has control over it.  Most "psychics" are self-decieved and the rest are deliberate frauds.
4. UFOs are real but the belief that they are machines powered by aliens is a naive leap in the dark.
5. Ghosts and poltergeists are real but the belief that they are spirits of dead people is a naive leap in the dark.
6. Science, including QM, has nothing to say about such things and trying to involve it is a fallacy.
7. You cannot change somebody's mind with logic if they already have an emotional agenda.
8. PQ threads will almost inevitably deteriorate into pointless arguments because of somebody's emotional agenda.
9. Most liberal thinkers turn liberalism into an agenda in itself.
10. None of these issues will ever be resolved.

It's not goodbye but my appearance here will be rare from now on.  When I appear I will not start any threads because of 8.

[Ninshub]

Hi Brian. I don't know if this synchronicity or something psi-related, but I just found myself thinking this morning about the forum and how I was happy that you were back and contributing, and that maybe you'd grown thicker skin (?) - that's not a criticism by the way, and I know I could be wrongly interpreting your past decisions to leave.

So I'm a little sad and quite disappointed to see you kind of go, as I've enjoyed a lot your recent contributions. I think point 8 is probably a given in most forums. Perhaps if you go (or create) such threads with different expectations, it might feel a little better. I know I rarely get into arguments or debate, but that's just me.

Anyway, hope at the least you don't make your appearances too rare. Be well!

Hi Brian. I don't know if this synchronicity or something psi-related, but I just found myself thinking this morning about the forum and how I was happy that you were back and contributing, and that maybe you'd grown thicker skin (?) - that's not a criticism by the way, and I know I could be wrongly interpreting your past decisions to leave.

So I'm a little sad and quite disappointed to see you kind of go, as I've enjoyed a lot your recent contributions. I think point 8 is probably a given in most forums. Perhaps if you go (or create) such threads with different expectations, it might feel a little better. I know I rarely get into arguments or debate, but that's just me.

Anyway, hope at the least you don't make your appearances too rare. Be well!

I would agree, and I’m probably the main or only person Brian’s talking about in 8.

I would urge him to reconsider. There’s no hard feelings on my part, that’s the honest truth. I’d prefer to discuss/argue things out, but I’d rather leave him be than see him leave.

Brian, you may come and go as you please, though I'd be happy to see you put in an appearance here as often as you like. Take care.

Hi Brian. I don't know if this synchronicity or something psi-related, but I just found myself thinking this morning about the forum and how I was happy that you were back and contributing, and that maybe you'd grown thicker skin (?) - that's not a criticism by the way, and I know I could be wrongly interpreting your past decisions to leave.

So I'm a little sad and quite disappointed to see you kind of go, as I've enjoyed a lot your recent contributions. I think point 8 is probably a given in most forums. Perhaps if you go (or create) such threads with different expectations, it might feel a little better. I know I rarely get into arguments or debate, but that's just me.

Anyway, hope at the least you don't make your appearances too rare. Be well!

Thank you

 I’m probably the main or only person Brian’s talking about in 8.

No

Brian, you may come and go as you please, though I'd be happy to see you put in an appearance here as often as you like. Take care.

Thanks

1. I am a fully believing christian - not entirely fundamentalist and not entirely orthodox - that will never change.
2. Weird shit happens and nobody really knows why.  Our views are coloured more by preference than logic.
3. Psi occurs as a rare, spontaneous and irrelevant effect and nobody has control over it.  Most "psychics" are self-decieved and the rest are deliberate frauds.
4. UFOs are real but the belief that they are machines powered by aliens is a naive leap in the dark.
5. Ghosts and poltergeists are real but the belief that they are spirits of dead people is a naive leap in the dark.
6. Science, including QM, has nothing to say about such things and trying to involve it is a fallacy.
7. You cannot change somebody's mind with logic if they already have an emotional agenda.
8. PQ threads will almost inevitably deteriorate into pointless arguments because of somebody's emotional agenda.
9. Most liberal thinkers turn liberalism into an agenda in itself.
10. None of these issues will ever be resolved.

It's not goodbye but my appearance here will be rare from now on.  When I appear I will not start any threads because of 8.

Isn't #1 an example of #7 & the second part of #2? At the least, it is hard to see how one can say a belief "will never change" but also criticize the inability to change people's minds?

It would also be odd, in light of #1, to make the assumption that #4 and #5 are "naive leaps in the dark"?

#6 is also odd, as a good deal has been said on this matter. Perhaps it is incorrect but I can't see how the totality can be dismissed without an "emotional agenda"?

As for #9, I wouldn't see how one can reach broad conclusions on that score. As someone who doesn't see themselves in the usual political framings I can assure that many* conservative thinkers also make their views an agenda. Consider this agenda, historically, is why you are adamant that your beliefs will never change regarding #1?

*How could a person use the term "most", given the inability to conduct a good sample, without an "emotional agenda"?

Isn't #1 an example of #7 & the second part of #2? At the least, it is hard to see how one can say a belief "will never change" but also criticize the inability to change people's minds?

It would also be odd, in light of #1, to make the assumption that #4 and #5 are "naive leaps in the dark"?

#6 is also odd, as a good deal has been said on this matter. Perhaps it is incorrect but I can't see how the totality can be dismissed without an "emotional agenda"?

As for #9, I wouldn't see how one can reach broad conclusions on that score. As someone who doesn't see themselves in the usual political framings I can assure that many* conservative thinkers also make their views an agenda. Consider this agenda, historically, is why you are adamant that your beliefs will never change regarding #1?

*How could a person use the term "most", given the inability to conduct a good sample, without an "emotional agenda"?

I get tired of pointing out to people that I have darn good personal reasons for being a Christian and if I had simply chosen a religion from an emotional standpoint, apart from Islam, Christianity would have been the last thing I would have chosen.  I would have probably gone for a watered down version of Hare Krsna because I approve of so many of their teachings and I like the peaceful aura they present.  It's an old strawman to call everybodys religion an emotional agenda.  It depends on the individual how they come to their beliefs and it doesn't apply to me at all.  The other thing is, I only talk about my faith here in terms of apologetics when I feel somebody is being unreasonably critical, other than that I try not to put people's backs up.  What I was referring to in that post is people who jump on other people's posts, not because they have thought it through, but because they simply don't like what is said.  I didn't read through all your post because it's too complex for my tired mind.  The world has worn me out and I suffer a lot of sadness but I am also capable of extremely intense peak experiences when circumstances are right.  Today has been a sad day and I am going to rest.  I like you a lot sci but I can't cope with you in this context.

I get tired of pointing out to people that I have darn good personal reasons for being a Christian and if I had simply chosen a religion from an emotional standpoint, apart from Islam, Christianity would have been the last thing I would have chosen.  I would have probably gone for a watered down version of Hare Krsna because I approve of so many of their teachings and I like the peaceful aura they present.  It's an old strawman to call everybodys religion an emotional agenda.  It depends on the individual how they come to their beliefs and it doesn't apply to me at all.  The other thing is, I only talk about my faith here in terms of apologetics when I feel somebody is being unreasonably critical, other than that I try not to put people's backs up.  What I was referring to in that post is people who jump on other people's posts, not because they have thought it through, but because they simply don't like what is said.  I didn't read through all your post because it's too complex for my tired mind.  The world has worn me out and I suffer a lot of sadness but I am also capable of extremely intense peak experiences when circumstances are right.  Today has been a sad day and I am going to rest.  I like you a lot sci but I can't cope with you in this context.

Perfectly reasonable, Brian. One of the problems with forums and the written word is that sometimes offence can be taken even when it's not intended and I'm not referring to anything about these posts.

I'm not saying you do or don't have a thick skin (I don't know) but I suspect you may be more of the sensitive type of soul simply because of the times you've decided to 'pack your bags', sometimes maybe understandably, sometimes not (just in my opinion that is). We've all been there.

I would say when you get pissed off with something, just have a break and then come back. As Ian stated, there isn't many of us left.

I often think it’s inviting disagreement when people say “this is what I think”. Sometimes it’s better to ask questions. Stating a position to be true on topics such as we discuss here is almost definitely not going to be right in part or even completely. I find it’s a lot easier to change my mind if I haven’t been too dogmatic.