Michael Sudduth's critique of the Leininger case as reincarnation or psi evidence

Of course, this is just a hypothetical - the reality appears to be, as derived from the evidence, from the data, that reincarnation is a fact, regardless of ancient scripture and acquired faith in religious dogma.

It seems that this reality of reincarnation is not the complete set of possibilities. There are places we might call "Heavens", and other afterlives that seem to just be iterations of mortal existence much like this one. There might also be Hells, but this less clear...

In fact at least some Greeks believed in both reincarnation and Heaven/Hell, with some Hindus and Buddhists carrying such ideas into the modern day.

It seems that this reality of reincarnation is not the complete set of possibilities. There are places we might call "Heavens", and other afterlives that seem to just be iterations of mortal existence much like this one. There might also be Hells, but this less clear...

In fact at least some Greeks believed in both reincarnation and Heaven/Hell, with some Hindus and Buddhists carrying such ideas into the modern day.

Even if such other spiritual and/or quasi-physical realities exist in which human spirits carry out other lives, the unfortunate effect would still remain that these other additional past lives would still inevitably eventually result in the snuffing out of the last life's unique and irreplaceable personality and individuality. In terms of preferences regardless of the hard data, I prefer the world view regarding this believed in by the Bahais.

Because if the indestructible "soul" (that entity that exits the brain/body during near death experience) didn't come from somewhere else (to the body) to experience another life, where did it come from? Surely brain cells (which are just cells after all) cannot produce something which is immaterial and by definition immortal, they are just cells.

This feels logically incoherent to me as well.

Where did it come from?  Many believe there's a simple answer to that one: The creator.

It seems that this reality of reincarnation is not the complete set of possibilities. There are places we might call "Heavens", and other afterlives that seem to just be iterations of mortal existence much like this one. There might also be Hells, but this less clear...

In fact at least some Greeks believed in both reincarnation and Heaven/Hell, with some Hindus and Buddhists carrying such ideas into the modern day.

Right.  So, again, asserting that an afterlife means a beforelife isn't logical unless you add other contraints/beliefs/etc.  Some "souls" may reincarnate and some might not.  Simple enough, right?

Right.  So, again, asserting that an afterlife means a beforelife isn't logical unless you add other contraints/beliefs/etc.  Some "souls" may reincarnate and some might not.  Simple enough, right?

...maybe. Heh. It gets tricky, IMO, because since there are no satisfying explanations for how consciousness gets created.

If the best solution is that souls either always existed or their origin is in the Beginning of Reality, then there would conceivably have to be a before life. But as you note:

This feels logically incoherent to me as well.

Where did it come from?  Many believe there's a simple answer to that one: The creator.

I guess the question would then be *when* did the creation of souls occur? Maybe a new soul is created for at least every human child born.

This feels logically incoherent to me as well.

Where did it come from?  Many believe there's a simple answer to that one: The creator.

That's okay, but I would say your statement is the more logically incoherent. When does the creator bring the soul into existence, then ? (Remember, the soul must be immortal, before you answer). Is it at conception ? Sometime during gestation ? When the child emerges from the womb ? This is in effect invoking magic (hey presto, there's your soul). 

And what about babies/children that die in birth or even when they are a few months old ? God bestowed on them an immortal soul for what reason ? Two minutes in an operating room and boom, off to heaven ? Makes no sense to me, Silence. Reincarnation makes a lot of sense, however.

...maybe. Heh. It gets tricky, IMO, because since there are no satisfying explanations for how consciousness gets created.

If the best solution is that souls either always existed or their origin is in the Beginning of Reality, then there would conceivably have to be a before life. But as you note:


I guess the question would then be *when* did the creation of souls occur? Maybe a new soul is created for at least every human child born.

It seems to me that the only answer (of course unacceptable to some) is that the souls need to have originally been created out of nothing as far as our reality is concerned, by the transcendent Mind or Deity responsible for the design and creation of our reality. Or by subsidiary powerful spiritual beings created by this Source. I know, very unscientific and counter to academic philosophising.

It seems to me that the only answer (of course unacceptable to some) is that the souls need to have originally been created out of nothing as far as our reality is concerned, by the transcendent Mind or Deity responsible for the design and creation of our reality. Or by subsidiary powerful spiritual beings created by this Source. I know, very unscientific and counter to academic philosophising.

I think once you allow the creation of something out of nothing it becomes difficult to see why Materialism is false?

After all the creation/production of consciousness from that which is non-conscious is less of a leap than making something from nothing.

The best versions of creation, IMO, are from some existing substance - either from some primordial chaos or from aspect of the "body" of the One (which could be "God" or not, depending on how one thinks of divinity).

I'll bite!

I'm not so sure that the point you made is logically coherent.  Why would an afterlife logically posit a "beforelife"?  I get that reincarnation evidence might suggest as much, but I don't see how an afterlife leads you there.

The idea here is that souls are fundamental.  That is, not reducible to anything else (similar to electrons and quarks).  But things only cease to exist when they break up into their component parts.  Souls, not being composed of anything else and not being reducible, cannot break up into parts. Hence, they seem likely to be immortal. But, likewise, if they cannot break up into parts and cease to exist, then neither can anything come together to create souls.

Of course, one might argue that they just could spontaneously come into being fully formed (unlike physical things).  But if souls can suddenly spring into being from nothingness, it would surely be reasonable to suppose they can simply cease to exist too at some point.

There's another issue.  If I am destined to exist forevermore, then it would be vanishingly unlikely that I would just happen to find myself existing just a few short years after I sprang into being.

Also, don't some people recall memories before conception but not of a former life?  I think they outnumber those that remember both a former life and the intermission. 

Also, I don't feel that I just came into existence sometime between conception and birth.  I have no memories of a previous life or dimension, but I feel such memories are there inside me.  And likely I would be blown away if I could just simply recollect any previous life or existence in a beforelife/afterlife realm(s).

That's okay, but I would say your statement is the more logically incoherent. When does the creator bring the soul into existence, then ? (Remember, the soul must be immortal, before you answer). Is it at conception ? Sometime during gestation ? When the child emerges from the womb ? This is in effect invoking magic (hey presto, there's your soul). 

And what about babies/children that die in birth or even when they are a few months old ? God bestowed on them an immortal soul for what reason ? Two minutes in an operating room and boom, off to heaven ? Makes no sense to me, Silence. Reincarnation makes a lot of sense, however.

I tend to agree with you, that it feels less likely that there are new souls than reincarnated ones.

But it seems possible some souls are new?