Medical Conditions and Unexplained Experiences of Children

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Medical Conditions and Unexplained Experiences of Children

Donna Thomas, PhD

Quote:This edited extract is taken from Chapter 9 of Children’s Unexplained Experiences in a Post Materialist World (Essentia Books, 2023). The essay interrogates the relations between mind and matter through the lens of children’s unexplained experiences and medical conditions. Conditions that can affect regions of the body through inflammation, such as epilepsy, PANS/PANDAS and narcolepsy, are examined against reports of increased extra sensory experiencing in children. Epigenetics is used as an example to show how ancestors, in the form of great grandparents, may be the true progenitors of children’s psychic contents, fused within a participation mystique (Jung). But how can another’s mind contents affect the physical bodies of their children? Ian Stevenson’s research on reincarnation and children’s birthmarks raises similar questions. These ideas are covered in this essay, forcing an interrogation into the nature of mind and body and their assumed status as being two distinct and separate things.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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Thanks Sci - that looks like another great find - I'll comment further after reading it. It reminds me of Irreducible Mind - a book choc full of documented non-materialist phenomena, utterly ignored by the science establishment.

Edit:

I found that discussion extremely disappointing. Instead of focussing on some examples and what they can tell us, it just seemed to become mired in waffle.

If that is typical of the book, I'd definitely not recommend it.

David
(This post was last modified: 2023-09-30, 03:38 PM by David001. Edited 1 time in total.)
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(2023-08-13, 04:30 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Medical Conditions and Unexplained Experiences of Children

Donna Thomas, PhD

Stevenson's work on Birthmarks I think is very weak. So I looked up one of the other references... ref 7, and found the paper:

http://alipsi.com.ar/investigaciones/pdf...venier.pdf

I also found a 4 part TV program, about this case on Youtube. It's foreign, but you can auto translate it, not very good, but you can get the general idea.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkPd-GJuELs

Part 4 actually has filming at the house, when an event occurs and a stone falls in the bathroom, which looks extremely dodgy... I have to say that I remain very skeptical.

When you get references in a paper to research, or cases, which seem weak, it does tend to put you off the author as being sufficiently skeptical and/or rigorous.
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring 
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
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(2023-10-01, 10:04 PM)Max_B Wrote: Stevenson's work on Birthmarks I think is very weak. So I looked up one of the other references... ref 7, and found the paper:
That paper is about PK - not birthmarks!

Stephenson did not primarily study birthmarks, he studied unexplained knowledge and memories in the children. The birthmark discovery was more of an after the fact observation.

Saying a study is "very weak" says nothing at all.

David
(This post was last modified: 2023-10-02, 09:45 AM by David001. Edited 1 time in total.)
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(2023-10-01, 10:04 PM)Max_B Wrote: Stevenson's work on Birthmarks I think is very weak. So I looked up one of the other references... ref 7, and found the paper:

http://alipsi.com.ar/investigaciones/pdf...venier.pdf

I also found a 4 part TV program, about this case on Youtube. It's foreign, but you can auto translate it, not very good, but you can get the general idea.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkPd-GJuELs

Part 4 actually has filming at the house, when an event occurs and a stone falls in the bathroom, which looks extremely dodgy... I have to say that I remain very skeptical.

When you get references in a paper to research, or cases, which seem weak, it does tend to put you off the author as being sufficiently skeptical and/or rigorous.

Great fact checking Max! Sadly almost everyone jumps to the sensational conclusions without taking critical views on the original sources.
(2023-10-02, 10:41 AM)sbu Wrote: Great fact checking Max! Sadly almost everyone jumps to the sensational conclusions without taking critical views on the original sources.

I haven't looked at this particular reference yet but I do think I - not to mention Sam Harris who was impressed enough with Stevenson's work to mention it in End of Faith itself - have done more due diligence than you give credit for here...

edit: I should note Harris didn't say he believed in Reincarnation, but thought Stevenson's work was good enough to merit further research into the topic.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2023-10-02, 04:20 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 1 time in total.)
(2023-10-02, 03:32 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: I haven't looked at this particular reference yet but I do think I - not to mention Sam Harris who was impressed enough with Stevenson's work to mention it in End of Faith itself - have done more due diligence than you give credit for here...

edit: I should note Harris didn't say he believed in Reincarnation, but thought Stevenson's work was good enough to merit further research into the topic.

I should point out that I'm perfectly accepting that children come into possession of information (experience) that is not their own, and I enjoyed reading Stevensons book European Cases of the Reincarnation Type. Recent Epigenetic inheritance studies seem to confirm that such a mechanism exists too. In some cases where a woman has been raped or had consensual sex with another man and kept it secret, the mechanisms that lies behind these epigenetic studies may be particularly relevant. I actually know of such a case in my own life, neither the child nor the husband know anything about it, but the husbands wife, and the biological father do know about it - these things go on - particularly before easy birth control, or in countries who do not have good access to easy birth control.

The article you linked to seemed more interested in the biological connection, rather than just the anomalous memories. It specifically mentions a different Stevenson book Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect. I thought that was a very poor book, really weak evidence presented. There were cases without photo's, evidence that had been lost and unable to be checked, and wounds clearly dissimilar, or in the wrong place. I couldn't believe that some of the cases had been thought good enough to put in the book. From memory, I don't think he was particularly convinced by the cases he presented in that book.
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring 
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
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(2023-10-02, 10:41 AM)sbu Wrote: Great fact checking Max! Sadly almost everyone jumps to the sensational conclusions without taking critical views on the original sources.

Sbu,

Are we talking about Stephenson's work on reincarnation, or about poltergeists? You and Max seem to have muddled the two together - or is there a connection somewhere?

David
(2023-10-03, 09:08 AM)David001 Wrote: Sbu,

Are we talking about Stephenson's work on reincarnation, or about poltergeists? You and Max seem to have muddled the two together - or is there a connection somewhere?

David

Children, by virtue of their developmental stage, are typically more receptive to the inputs and beliefs of authority figures, such as parents. (e.g. see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10074684/). This attribute can compromise the validity of the memories they report. If parents hold beliefs in for example reincarnation, it might unintentionally influence the children's statements and memories, either by generating or shaping them. This issue casts doubts on the reliability of the data Stevenson presents.
(This post was last modified: 2023-10-03, 01:28 PM by sbu. Edited 1 time in total.)
(2023-10-03, 12:48 PM)sbu Wrote: Children, by virtue of their developmental stage, are typically more receptive to the inputs and beliefs of authority figures, such as parents. (e.g. see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10074684/). This attribute can compromise the validity of the memories they report. If parents hold beliefs in for example reincarnation, it might unintentionally influence the children's statements and memories, either by generating or shaping them. This issue casts doubts on the reliability of the data Stevenson presents. Personally I don't assign any credibility to this approach to consciousness research.

Mod here.

This type of posting is not appropriate for the ECP forum. Please be mindful of where you post given your views.

(Or, alternatively, ask Sciborg if he wants to move the thread outside of this forum to allow or engage in skeptic vs. proponent discussion.)
(This post was last modified: 2023-10-03, 01:21 PM by Ninshub. Edited 1 time in total.)

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