Marketing strategy and the Psi community

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Spinning this off into a new thread cuz it's a worthwhile topic ->

(2021-03-17, 03:35 PM)tim Wrote:
(2021-03-17, 01:56 PM)stephenw Wrote: The "bundling" of Survival and telepathy may make the argument harder.  Parnia is doing the professional thing and has cemented the factual basis of NDE reports and established a pathway forward for data gathering standards. 

I think that the survival component brings anti-religious headwinds.  I would not pick NDE's as the best chance for convincing the academic mob  Surely, to "prove" an NDE is the gold standard for Psi marketing.  In media presentations it would be like a mike-drop.

The better suited marketing strategy, in my humble opinion, is the work of Sheldrake and biologist exploring mind in animals.  The principal of anomalous information transfer is at the root of Sheldrake and Parnia research.  Once a methodology is framed, the study of Psi - as a pragmatic phenomena - will procced at a lower emotional level. Psi that presents as biology that includes humans and other organisms. 

I think that simple solid evidence, at the basest level of natural instinct, erodes the anti-Psi base and leads to an organized argument faster.  Once there is an established means of HOW it works - then the scope of acceptance for Psi will open up.

  https://orionmagazine.org/article/deep-intellect/

(2021-03-17, 03:35 PM)tim Wrote: Interesting ! Do you perhaps mean, let mainstream science get used to psi first and only then discuss survival ?



Interesting ! Do you perhaps mean, let mainstream science get used to psi first and only then discuss survival ?
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(2021-03-18, 07:04 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Spinning this off into a new thread cuz it's a worthwhile topic ->
Tim asks, " Do you perhaps mean, let mainstream science get used to psi first and only then discuss survival ?"

I think the framework of religious ideas about heavenly survival - and those looking for natural proof - speak two separate languages.  New bridges, channels and translations are sorely needed for communication between the context of a spiritual survival and that of phenomenal natural survival.   In my own mind it is unclear. 

A natural survival being confirmed in reality by anomalous communication, where bits of information and meaningful exchanges occur.  When occurring in such as way as to be documented, these individual events can be charted for patterns and the variables underlying their manifestation discerned.  

Practical "measurement" of spiritual or celestial evolution seems out of reach of academic scientific methods.  
 
I just listened to the Greyson interview and, all in all, it was great.  I would call Moody, Greyson, et all, as coming from the mainstream science view -- right here and now.  If they have a "foot down" on the playing field, proponents like us need to stand up to the abuse.  Think of IANDs as "Jackie Robinsons" and breaking barriers.  There is nothing "paranormal" to their hard work and formal presentations - just normative practice in a new and challenging area.
(This post was last modified: 2021-03-19, 06:17 PM by stephenw.)
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(2021-03-19, 06:13 PM)stephenw Wrote: I think the framework of religious ideas about heavenly survival - and those looking for natural proof - speak two separate languages.  New bridges, channels and translations are sorely needed for communication between the context of a spiritual survival and that of phenomenal natural survival.   In my own mind it is unclear. 


As I mentioned in another thread, Greyson - in his book - talks about the time he and Ian Stevenson had a paper published in a leading scientific journal on the subject of NDEs. The reaction from the scientific community seems to have been summed up by a letter from a high ranking hospital doctor who complained that the paper should not have been published in a scientific journal as it deals with religious matters, not science.

Of course, that was decades ago and Greyson himself is optimistic that attitudes are changing. I'm not so sure. I still think that the world beyond our limited bubble of interest sees the subject of survival as either religious or superstitious, not scientific. While I lived in the UK I joined the Scientific and Medical Network and was able to talk with scientists and doctors about these subjects. That organisation was created specifically to address the attitudes we are talking about - they hoped to find a way to bridge the gap between science and spirituality. I had some wonderful chats with the likes of Sheldrake and Peter Fenwick but, despite all that, I have talked to others in the wider world, even people interested in these topics, who have never heard of the SMN, Greyson, Fenwick, etc. Most are not aware that anyone involved in science or medicine has an opinion about survival other than "it is just superstitious nonsense". 

In fact, quite a few of the conversations I have had with people who don't spend any time considering these things seem to reflect the opinion that such beliefs are anti-science and belong with conspiracy theories and alien abduction accounts. Talk about marketing - this kind of attitude is engendered by and promoted by the media.

Having said that, the website of our largest NZ news radio station has a link to their interview with Greyson and a description of the content of his book. In a rare departure from the media norm, they didn't include a disclaimer or the views of a sceptic in the article.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
(This post was last modified: 2021-03-19, 09:41 PM by Kamarling.)
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(2021-03-19, 06:13 PM)stephenw Wrote: Tim asks, " Do you perhaps mean, let mainstream science get used to psi first and only then discuss survival ?"

I think the framework of religious ideas about heavenly survival - and those looking for natural proof - speak two separate languages.  New bridges, channels and translations are sorely needed for communication between the context of a spiritual survival and that of phenomenal natural survival.   In my own mind it is unclear. 

A natural survival being confirmed in reality by anomalous communication, where bits of information and meaningful exchanges occur.  When occurring in such as way as to be documented, these individual events can be charted for patterns and the variables underlying their manifestation discerned.  

Practical "measurement" of spiritual or celestial evolution seems out of reach of academic scientific methods.  
 
I just listened to the Greyson interview and, all in all, it was great.  I would call Moody, Greyson, et all, as coming from the mainstream science view -- right here and now.  If they have a "foot down" on the playing field, proponents like us need to stand up to the abuse.  Think of IANDs as "Jackie Robinsons" and breaking barriers.  There is nothing "paranormal" to their hard work and formal presentations - just normative practice in a new and challenging area.

I get what you're saying there entirely. I suppose my interest in NDE's may suggest that I think the transcendental elements (of NDE's) are amenable to scientific study. In fact of course, they are not and never could be. However, an element of the NDE that certainly can be studied scientifically is the out of body experience, which if confirmed empirically once and for all, will be perhaps the greatest of all discoveries and may lead to a scientific revolution. Just to clarify.
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(2021-03-19, 09:40 PM)Kamarling Wrote: As I mentioned in another thread, Greyson - in his book - talks about the time he and Ian Stevenson had a paper published in a leading scientific journal on the subject of NDEs. The reaction from the scientific community seems to have been summed up by a letter from a high ranking hospital doctor who complained that the paper should not have been published in a scientific journal as it deals with religious matters, not science.

Of course, that was decades ago and Greyson himself is optimistic that attitudes are changing. I'm not so sure. I still think that the world beyond our limited bubble of interest sees the subject of survival as either religious or superstitious, not scientific. While I lived in the UK I joined the Scientific and Medical Network and was able to talk with scientists and doctors about these subjects. That organisation was created specifically to address the attitudes we are talking about - they hoped to find a way to bridge the gap between science and spirituality.
Thanks for the link.

In marketing the job is to craft the narrative for the media's presentation in favor of the brand.  Past media basis is a solid basis for new marketing strategy.  If there is a "negative" active in the brand image or current press reports (of course no press is the worst), the assignment is to neutralize the neg and re-associate the brand with a positive.    

While I personally understand sympathy for bridging science and spirituality - it is only a positive to a segment of the public.

A pragmatic marketing view is cold and narrow in scope.  However...................
(This post was last modified: 2021-03-21, 06:55 PM by stephenw.)
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The segment of the public who do identify with "a modern spirituality" is large, but when filtered for individuals who are open to Psi it gets quite smaller.  Psi and the natural sciences are at odds in terms of the paradigm of the recent past.

Phenomenal realities like sensing distant events, NDEs, communication in biology, kundalini and "gut instinct" all call for reasoned research for root causes.  The more solid data opens the mainstream view - the more the Psi narrative will be a normative viewpoint.

That change in how the image of Psi is rationalized, could enable the obvious connection between a scientific context and spiritual context to improved.

Let me ask----  if you could be the VP Marketing, with a graphic designer and staff, what kind of image and promotion would you envision for the ideas here in Psiencequest?

Here is my vote for the most professional and well-crafted website.  The opening image is on target.  

https://templetonreligiontrust.org/
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They are well on their way to a theory that can explain what is going on spacetime... so far, this is what it looks like in in Kinematic spacetime from one of Nima Arkani-Hamed's Youtube presentations...

The black oblong's are like cylinders... their circular cross section is infinity... they can be compactifed along their length... yes their are two of them... and yes... that is a wormhole connecting positions between both of them...

I thought they would find something deeper, some new level of reality that would underlie quantum mechanics and Relativity (spacetime).... I admit, that last year I was simply crushed by Nima's lecture when he showed this graphic, showing what the 'thing' they have described by maths actually looks like in spacetime...

[Image: kinematicalspacetime.jpg]

I've struggled with it... but I'm resigned to what this is... it's biological... it's us... the only things that look like that are tubulin, centrioles, cilia...

We won't find anything deeper... we've been searching for so, long... and we've found ourselves... It fits so well

This place we experience is real, but it is a construct...
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring 
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
(This post was last modified: 2021-03-22, 04:39 PM by Max_B.)
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(2021-03-22, 04:31 PM)Max_B Wrote: They are well on their way to a theory that can explain what is going on spacetime... so far, this is what it looks like in in Kinematic spacetime from one of Nima Arkani-Hamed's Youtube presentations...

The black oblong's are like cylinders... their circular cross section is infinity... they can be compactifed along their length... yes their are two of them... and yes... that is a wormhole connecting positions between both of them...

I thought they would find something deeper, some new level of reality that would underlie quantum mechanics and Relativity (spacetime).... I admit, that last year I was simply crushed by Nima's lecture when he showed this graphic, showing what the 'thing' they have described by maths actually looks like in spacetime...

[Image: kinematicalspacetime.jpg]

I've struggled with it... but I'm resigned to what this is... it's biological... it's us... the only things that look like that are tubulin, centrioles, cilia...

We won't find anything deeper... we've been searching for so, long... and we've found ourselves... It fits so well

This place we experience is real, but it is a construct...
great to see you posting here.
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(2021-03-22, 04:31 PM)Max_B Wrote: They are well on their way to a theory that can explain what is going on spacetime... so far, this is what it looks like in in Kinematic spacetime from one of Nima Arkani-Hamed's Youtube presentations...

The black oblong's are like cylinders... their circular cross section is infinity... they can be compactifed along their length... yes their are two of them... and yes... that is a wormhole connecting positions between both of them...

I thought they would find something deeper, some new level of reality that would underlie quantum mechanics and Relativity (spacetime).... I admit, that last year I was simply crushed by Nima's lecture when he showed this graphic, showing what the 'thing' they have described by maths actually looks like in spacetime...

[Image: kinematicalspacetime.jpg]

I've struggled with it... but I'm resigned to what this is... it's biological... it's us... the only things that look like that are tubulin, centrioles, cilia...

We won't find anything deeper... we've been searching for so, long... and we've found ourselves... It fits so well

This place we experience is real, but it is a construct...
Very interesting, but to paraphrase Dr. Venkman: pretend for a moment that I don't know anything about kinematics, Nima Arkani-Hamed, or physics, and just tell me what this has to do with marketing.


(Didn't mean that to be so snarky; I'm honestly confused and curious how this ties into the topic. Are you saying this rules out psi phenomena and therefore the need to market them better?)
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Marketing strategies generate effects that are disproportionate to the overall work efforts of institutions, corporations and personal brands.  Knowing this - paying attention to branding is must for success.  I am somewhat curious why I don't read more emotion about the current status of the brand image and memes of Psi.

Is it a little taboo here on Psiencequest, because it is so important?  I think we should be killing aging moss-covered giants, rather than "feeling threatened".  I feel more "Jack" than victim and hope to encourage others.

In post #2, there is a link to The Templeton website.  It is highly professional and commands respect   It is more a  vehicle more for Spirituality than ESP.  In our forum there are deeply embedded observers.  Many someone will point to Psi websites that will grab attention or project confidence for review.  The science route will move the ball, more than spirit in my humble opinion.  While a positive attitude about inner meanings is very important and should never be dismissed - the work at hand is projecting core ideas aimed at wide acceptance.

While weird science is fun - Psi needs newly researched topics backed by methods and targeted at fundamental understandings.
(This post was last modified: 2021-04-09, 08:34 PM by stephenw.)
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