Lemuria and Atlantis

Any ancient technological energy-using civilization would have eventually explored and spread all over the world and not been just located where they originated in a now-destroyed and submerged lost continent. And by now our search for and exploitation of metals deposits would have revealed some sort of surviving evidence like ancient mine tunnels and equipment, to say nothing of common but relatively impervious objects like ceramic toilets.

The problem is that unfortunately science doesn't work that way. As yourself why mainstream science hasn't locked on to any of the reproducible psi effects - presentiment, reincarnation, ..... take your pick. The answer is pretty simple - if they take up a contentious idea they don't get funded anymore. The problem isn't restricted to one area, Gold doesn't stress this too much in his book, but he certainly implies that science avoids the obvious conclusion regarding the origin of petroleum.

Likewise, we saw efforts made to deny Halton Arp telescope time to hide his discoveries regarding redshifts.

You simply cannot translate lack of reported evidence into proof that the opposite is true.

David

The problem is that unfortunately science doesn't work that way. As yourself why mainstream science hasn't locked on to any of the reproducible psi effects - presentiment, reincarnation, ..... take your pick. The answer is pretty simple - if they take up a contentious idea they don't get funded anymore. The problem isn't restricted to one area, Gold doesn't stress this too much in his book, but he certainly implies that science avoids the obvious conclusion regarding the origin of petroleum.

Likewise, we saw efforts made to deny Halton Arp telescope time to hide his discoveries regarding redshifts.

You simply cannot translate lack of reported evidence into proof that the opposite is true.

David

I don't think the scientific big-wigs of the time would have had the power for the last 150 years to totally suppress multiple finds of ancient mineshafts and artifacts in many operating mines. These things would have inevitably gotten out into the news media at least.

I don't think the scientific big-wigs of the time would have had the power for the last 150 years to totally suppress multiple finds of ancient mineshafts and artifacts in many operating mines. These things would have inevitably gotten out into the news media at least.

I am staggered by what has been hidden from view. I mean take one example, presentiment. Dean Radin must have an enormous pile of data showing that people are aware of upcoming events for about 4 secs before the events happen.

The fact that this work is more or less ignored is staggering for a variety of reasons:

1) Signalling from the future isn't supposed to be possible, even though the equations of physics are time-symmetric (except for Thermodynamics, of course).

2) The existence of this priming effect must have enormous relevance to neuroscience.

3) If there is something wrong with DR's setup, that should be of vital interest to the many other psychologists that use essentially the same setup for conventional experiments.

Dean was also able to request data from some other experiments that showed presentiment although that wasn't the aim of the experiment.

The fact is that all science seems to filter out anything that is considered undesirable - including for example Halton Arp's work, which could destroy Cosmology as we know it.

I don't know whether there is any truth to these stories of Atlantis or Lemuria (that I hadn't heard of) but if channelers that seem to have given other valid information, talk about such things, I'd consider that incremental evidence that something like that really did happen in the distant past.

David

[Ninshub]

I don't know whether there is any truth to these stories of Atlantis or Lemuria (that I hadn't heard of) but if channelers that seem to have given other valid information, talk about such things, I'd consider that incremental evidence that something like that really did happen in the distant past.

David

I think channelers by and large don't deliver veridical information, as opposed to a medium with a discarnate.

I think the ideas of Atlantis and Lemuria got developed by the theosophists (late 19th century), and psychic healer Edgar Cayce continued to popularize them in the early-to-mid 20th century. I have absolutely NO dea what to think of these notions in terms of their potential veracity. I have no problem believing that Cayce got a lot of things wrong. I tend to be deeply skeptical of such notions but then I'm kind of dumbfounded when people I respect seem to indicate these were real in some way...

It has become a commonplace among channelers to speak of those lost civlizations. Sometimes the idea is that they were spiritually more advanced but something went wrong and humanity had to be rebooted, or something like that!

Anyhoo, I don't know if this is worthwhile, but this person is presenting Cayce on these topics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rn-u5zxs8A

[Ninshub]

I'm starting to listen to that video (12 minutes in). Still just introductory remarks but he sounds very reasonable and he's a big fan of Graham Hancock. I'm curious to see where it goes, although I don't expect to reach any clarity on this issue!

EDIT: Now finished. Yeah, no clarity. Although these really aren't my fields of knowledge, or even interest...

I am staggered by what has been hidden from view. I mean take one example, presentiment. Dean Radin must have an enormous pile of data showing that people are aware of upcoming events for about 4 secs before the events happen.

The fact that this work is more or less ignored is staggering for a variety of reasons:

1)      Signalling from the future isn't supposed to be possible, even though the equations of physics are time-symmetric (except for Thermodynamics, of course).

2)      The existence of this priming effect must have enormous relevance to neuroscience.

3)      If there is something wrong with DR's setup, that should be of vital interest to the many other psychologists that use essentially the same setup for conventional experiments.

Dean was also able to request data from some other experiments that showed presentiment although that wasn't the aim of the experiment.

The fact is that all science seems to filter out anything that is considered undesirable - including for example Halton Arp's work, which could destroy Cosmology as we know it.

I don't know whether there is any truth to these stories of Atlantis or Lemuria (that I hadn't heard of) but if channelers that seem to have given other valid information, talk about such things, I'd consider that incremental evidence that something like that really did happen in the distant past.

David

I certainly agree that orthodox establishment science has successfully suppressed a ton of evidence accumulated over the last 100-150 years for paranormal phenomena, and that Halton Arp has found a lot of real evidence.

I just don't think that this sort of deliberate ideologically-driven academic ignoring of evidence and refusal to fund studies that has happened in parapsychology and cosmology would have been able to totally suppress the sort of multiple finds of ancient artifacts that would have happened if high technological civilizations in Atlantis and Lemuria actually existed 50 or 20 or so thousand years ago and as would be inevitable left a lot of debris as evidence of their presence.  

Completely covering up and suppressing all news media reports of ancient mine diggings and artifacts continually being discovered in working mines and elsewhere would require much more social power than the scientific establishment could bring to bear. This suppression of evidence and refusal of funding and sabotaging of reputations and careers happens mostly in the microcosm of academia.

Of course, if the ancient prehistoric civilization was in the deep geological past many millions of years ago geological processes would be expected to have erased most of the evidence.

I certainly agree that orthodox establishment science has successfully suppressed a ton of evidence accumulated over the last 100-150 years for paranormal phenomena, and that Halton Arp has found a lot of real evidence.

I just don't think that this sort of deliberate ideologically-driven academic ignoring of evidence and refusal to fund studies that has happened in parapsychology and cosmology would have been able to totally suppress the sort of multiple finds of ancient artifacts that would have happened if high technological civilizations in Atlantis and Lemuria actually existed 50 or 20 or so thousand years ago and as would be inevitable left a lot of debris as evidence of their presence.  

Completely covering up and suppressing all news media reports of ancient mine diggings and artifacts continually being discovered in working mines and elsewhere would require much more social power than the scientific establishment could bring to bear. This suppression of evidence and refusal of funding and sabotaging of reputations and careers happens mostly in the microcosm of academia.

Of course, if the ancient prehistoric civilization was in the deep geological past many millions of years ago geological processes would be expected to have erased most of the evidence.

I realised some time ago just how unscientific science has become. I mean 10 years ago I was hit by medical problems that turned out to be statin-related. I GOOGLEd around that issue and came up with a number of blogs run by doctors related to this issue (I'm being a bit vague to avoid drifting into topics we don't discuss here) and what was being discussed (mainly by doctors and medical researchers) was the corruption of their science on a broad front. More recently, I read a cardiologist who was describing how he was contacted by a very concerned scientist because the team he worked with had discovered some very disturbing evidence that would have upset some of their financial supporters (nothing to do with statins), so they had a big meeting and decided not to publish.

Sorry, science has gradually morphed into a tool that can be manipulated by anyone with enough money, or by sufficiently powerful cliques.

I think we will just have to agree to differ.

David

EDIT: Now finished. Yeah, no clarity. Although these really aren't my fields of knowledge, or even interest...

I feel the same about this topic - it is just too far removed from my area of study or interest. I just feel that if channelling evidence is in conflict with archaeological evidence, we should not deduce that one or other technique is at fault.

David

[Ninshub]

I'm right with you David.

A lot of channelers talk about there being parallel realities (sometimes an infinite number depending on whatever choice you make)*, also, so if that's true (I don't know), and if our archeological evidence negates these past civilizations in the reality "we" all seem to inhabit right now, it's then theoretically possible that both this didn't thappen and this did happen are true.

I'm not saying I believe it. On the surface it can sound like an easy out. And it's not how channelers, the ones I've heard, explain Atlantis and Lemuria. But it could still be true.

---

*Here's an example of such a channeled entity talking about something like this.
Queued:
https://youtu.be/mzb1ZBGidmc?t=1522

I'm right with you David.

Thanks. This was something that was easier to express in the old Skeptiko, but the broad scope of Skeptiko has its own pitfalls! I think very it is very important to realise the extreme fallibility of modern science.

A lot of channelers talk about there being parallel realities (sometimes an infinite number depending on whatever choice you make)*, also, so if that's true (I don't know), and if our archeological evidence negates these past civilizations in the reality "we" all seem to inhabit right now, it's then theoretically possible that both this didn't thappen and this did happen are true.

I'm not saying I believe it. On the surface it can sound like an easy out. And it's not how channelers, the ones I've heard, explain Atlantis and Lemuria. But it could still be true.

---

*Here's an example of such a channeled entity talking about something like this.
Queued:
https://youtu.be/mzb1ZBGidmc?t=1522

Is this lady your preferred channeller? I imagine it would be difficult to listen to her for too long. For a while I became interested in Jane Roberts rendering of what Seth wished to communicate. Gradually I became frustrated, and began to suspect the message was being obfuscated. For example, he/she would refer to e-e units without clearly specifying how - if at all - these related to known physics. I mean, if the thing had a name, and he communicated to Jane, why did the concept come out in such an odd form?

David