(2017-09-03, 01:56 AM)Leuders Wrote: Here are some different photographs from physical mediumship.
Left is Stanisława Tomczyk a polish medium and right is magician William Marriott who replicated her feats by natural methods (invisible thread).
OK, so clearly it is possible to fake this stuff. That surprises no one. Magicians have been doing this sort of thing for hundreds of years...
However- the fact that a magician can fake putting a ball under a cup, doesn't mean that a person can't do it for real, does it?
Your are stating the obvious (that things can be faked) and claiming it as some sort of revelation.
News flash- it isn't.
You are making this sound cut and dried and simple. Of course, it isn't.
I think most informed people, such as those on this forum, already understand this, and I assume you do as well. But just for the record:
Proving something isn't faked requires the subject to be willing and able to submit to special restrictions and scrutiny in order to satisfy your skepticism. Unfortunately most subjects are completely disinterested in your skepticism and don't care one iota whether you or I believe in what they are doing. And those that might care, may not be able to perform the acts given the restrictions you want to impose.
In many cases the reason these folks are disinterested is because they have been subjected to repeated insults and other indignities and are simply sick and tired of the abuse. They rightfully understand that it is almost always a waste of their time trying to convince those who really don't want to believe in what they are doing, and who will never fail to find additional reasons for same. And yes- in some other cases, the subjects don't want to cooperate because they don't want to be found out.
In a more subtle way: many of these extraordinary skills seem require a sort of group support to manifest. Negativity and doubt truly DO affect to outcome of the activity. In the same way that it has been shown that the intentions of a person running a "scientific test" such as a for a pharmaceutical product, can sway the outcome. This unfortunately seems to be the nature of many psi phenomena.
These truths are inconvenient for anyone on either side of the question, because it makes testing and validation or refutation difficult and laborious, and maybe even impossible.
Rather than admit these things, and proceed in a constructive manner, it seems like you would rather ignore them, and continue to flit around throwing up 100 year old pictures and make: insubstantial, irrelevant, easily controvertible, and just plain erroneous statements as if they are substantial arguments.
To your point-
Are there some (even many) who don't have the ability to perform these feats and are faking it? Of course there are. But that's the easy part.
Telling the difference is, of course, the hard part.
Are there ANY who
can do these things? That of course is the
big question.
I'm thinking that if you can't come up with something better than 100 year old pictures of long dead magicians with invisible strings you are screwed.
Isn't it possible for you to step it up and talk about modern day events and evidence and methods?
Unfortunately, even if it is, I'm afraid it will be difficult to make an irrefutable case on either side of the argument. Which of course is why, after going on 200 years of arguing about this stuff, we are still where we began.
I can't help but think however, that we have more science and more tools than ever to look more closely at these things, but we just can't seem to marshal the impetus to do so. Most in the science community (who are the people with the intellect, methods, and infrastructure to do so) just don't yet seem willing, mostly because it challenges the bedrock on which they stand. And until this bedrock softens, we will be having these arguments based on insufficient (for some) proof for some time to come.