God Helmet - Failed Replication Debacle

[Laird]

Not to be a dick, tim, but just for the sake of fairness and balance, this is how the account in the book chapter from which you quoted in post #8 above ends:

As I transcribed my words, I realized that in my skepticism, my memory had filtered out some of my responses to Persinger’s electromagnetic waves. Manipulating my temporal lobes had evoked mental images—and, who knows, perhaps the memory of my prophecy for Sheila. I conceded that I could not easily dismiss Michael Persinger’s work, nor his discomfiting assertion that God is all in one’s head.

Whilst I quite readily dismiss the assertion that God is all in one's head, it does seem that Persinger did get some interesting results.

I think a better response than "but replications failed" though is: so what? We already know that various other physical interventions such as psychedelic drugs can (somewhat reliably) facilitate spiritual experiences. If those don't lead us to hypothesise that consciousness is generated by the brain and the spiritual is but a neurological illusion, then why would electromagnetically-induced spiritual experiences?

[Laird]

I suppose that the idea is one of specific causation: when Persinger manipulates the electromagnetic field to the specific configuration X, the subject experiences the specific experience Y. Thus, we can deduce that X specifically causes Y specifically.

OK, there's a logic to that. But then the question becomes: how comparable to genuine, full-blown NDEs are any of the experiences Y, and, especially, are any of them veridical? If they become comparable then we have something very interesting going on: not by any means a proof of a neurological basis for consciousness (because genuine veridical NDEs with a dead subject who is later revived have disproved that already), but an insight into how the physical mediates the spiritual.

Re the subject of this thread, I am glad that Max has challenged the purportedly failed replication, because the basis on which it was used to dismiss the original experiment in the article nbtruthman originally shared seemed to me to be too akin to the basis on which "skeptics" dismiss parapsychology experiments due to failed replications, and I wouldn't want us to encourage the sort of double-standards by which we object to "skeptic" dismissals yet put forth our own on the same (or similar) grounds.

Exactly, you’ve grasped the issue I was addressing which has nothing to do with NDE’s, and everything to do with refuting biased articles suggesting Persinger’s magnetic field studies have been debunked.

Tim hasn’t understood that, or why I’m posting this now, which was in response to another member who posted a link to a terribly biased article which was used to debunk Persenger’s studies.

Not to be a dick, tim, but just for the sake of fairness and balance, this is how the account in the book chapter from which you quoted in post #8 above ends:


Whilst I quite readily dismiss the assertion that God is all in one's head, it does seem that Persinger did get some interesting results.

I think a better response than "but replications failed" though is: so what? We already know that various other physical interventions such as psychedelic drugs can (somewhat reliably) facilitate spiritual experiences. If those don't lead us to hypothesise that consciousness is generated by the brain and the spiritual is but a neurological illusion, then why would electromagnetically-induced spiritual experiences?

As I transcribed my words, I realized that in my skepticism, my memory had filtered out some of my responses to Persinger’s electromagnetic waves. Manipulating my temporal lobes had evoked mental images—and, who knows, perhaps the memory of my prophecy for Sheila. I conceded that I could not easily dismiss Michael Persinger’s work, nor his discomfiting assertion that God is all in one’s head.

I didn't link to that article as a scientific/reliable source of information. I linked to it to show you that Persinger wore his suit while mowing the lawn. The other bit I posted about her experience within the helmet was just something mildly interesting, that's all. No claims from me about what she said or didn't say. 

The bolded above that you posted (and I bolded) is perfectly inline with what I already said previously. I hope you pursue other members with the same vigour you seem to be pursuing me with, Laird. (and no I'm not offended and neither should you be)

Exactly, you’ve grasped the issue I was addressing which has nothing to do with NDE’s, and everything to do with refuting biased articles suggesting Persinger’s magnetic field studies have been debunked.

Tim hasn’t understood that, or why I’m posting this now, which was in response to another member who posted a link to a terribly biased article which was used to debunk Persenger’s studies.

Max, I do understand. But Persingers helmet was an attempt to recreate and explain the phenomenon of NDE and it didn't. 

Your interest in Persinger's helmet stems from your own liking for the potential of electromagnetic fields to add support to your own completely unproven and untested theory, which has no scientific basis whatsoever. 

I'm not sure why you are given a free ride (from Laird) with it on the forum but I wouldn't be in favour of you being closed down with your ideas. They are interesting.

[Laird]

I hope you pursue other members with the same vigour you seem to be pursuing me with, Laird.

Certainly, tim. There's no respite for anybody when I'm in pursuit.

You are free to go about your business. Peace be.

Persinger, it seems to me, may not have believed in God but he did have an interesting career in parapsychology:

Persinger also investigated geomagnetic relationship in the context of other seemingly paranormal experiences such as UFO sightings. He found that such reports between 1950 and 1966 indicated not only an inverse relationship with geomagnetic activity – in keeping with the other research domains – but a positive relationship with tectonic strain. Putting these two findings together, Persinger predicted that the next 14 years – 1967 to 1981 – would also show a similar level of concordance with UFO reports. This proved to be the case: 80% of the temporal variation in such UFO sightings could be accounted for by Persinger’s modelling.9

The robust relationship found in natural settings is also evident in analyses of historical laboratory psi data. Persinger and Krippner10 examined the Maimonides dream telepathy experiments and found the most successful sessions occurred on geomagnetically quiet nights – around 10 nT (nanoTesla). Geomagnetic activity above 25 nT was associated with low scoring. Persinger also examined card-guessing data from the early Rhine period culled from 185 studies and found that the most successful years were also the quietest geomagnetically

In the late 1990s Ingo Swann, a psychic well-known to the parapsychology community, was extensively tested by Persinger’s neuroscience research group. In the first experiment, Persinger probed for neural correlates of successful remote viewing performance in which there was a notable spike in the 7-Hz range including slow wave activity over the occipital lobes. A general neuropsychological assessment combined with Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) indicated that Swann’s brain exhibited an unusual structural and functional organization within the parieto-occipital region of the right hemisphere. Persinger concluded that Swann’s remote viewing ability could be enhanced by the applied magnetic field and that neural signatures of successful remote viewing performance could be identified.

Persinger, it seems to me, may not have believed in God but he did have an interesting career in parapsychology:

Persinger also believed that ghosts/poltergeists were a product of geophysics and geomagnetic activity affecting people's brains according to the documentary I posted in another thread. 

He claimed that many haunted places he had visited have fluctuations in electromagnetic activity caused by their locations on Earth. He theorised that this affected the brainwaves of those there over a period of time, causing them to experience ghostly phenomena that can be attributed to hallucinations. The documentary alluded to his God Helmet experiment as well. But I found several problems with this theory:

• How do you explain hauntings that seem to target people rather than locations e.g. the Batzel haunting featured in the documentary? I find it very unlikely that every house the Batzels moved into, including the final one they built themselves, was on a site of geomagnetic activity. 
  
• How is it possible for the ghostly activity to subside following some paranormal investigations that manage to 'free' the spirit(s)? Is this a case of the Placebo Effect overpowering the electromagnetic waves or does the geomagnetic activity just conveniently die down around these times? 
  
• How plausible is it that geomagnetic activity would cause those living in these locations to perceive the exact same apparitions (veridical), as has been reported numerous times? 
  
• To what extent are electromagnetic waves affecting brainwaves capable of causing poltergeist activity such as the scribblings on the walls the Batzels described? The Batzels even took photos apparently of these drawings...
  
• Just how powerful are these natural electromagnetic waves? We know stimulated waves can affect us to some degree, but do these natural ones have the same level of effect? Persinger didn't elaborate on this in the documentary IIRC. 
  

This theory also suggests that strange phenomena caught on camera of supposed ghosts that aren't debunked as normal animals or objects, camera problems or motion blur can be said to be evidence of this electro-magnetic activity in action. However, this doesn't necessarily apply to all ghost photos or videos. 


If anyone could find anything further on this theory that would be appreciated, since I feel I've seen this theory before on some science sites...

[*]How do you explain hauntings that seem to target people rather than locations e.g. the Batzel haunting featured in the documentary? I find it very unlikely that every house the Batzels moved into, including the final one they built themselves, was on a site of geomagnetic activity. 

[*]How is it possible for the ghostly activity to subside following some paranormal investigations that manage to 'free' the spirit(s)? Is this a case of the Placebo Effect overpowering the electromagnetic waves or does the geomagnetic activity just conveniently die down around these times? 

[*]How plausible is it that geomagnetic activity would cause those living in these locations to perceive the exact same apparitions (veridical), as has been reported numerous times? 

[*]To what extent are electromagnetic waves affecting brainwaves capable of causing poltergeist activity such as the scribblings on the walls the Batzels described? The Batzels even took photos apparently of these drawings...

[*]Just how powerful are these natural electromagnetic waves? We know stimulated waves can affect us to some degree, but do these natural ones have the same level of effect? Persinger didn't elaborate on this in the documentary IIRC. 

[*]
This is an older thread, but I can try. I am a fan of Persinger, so I have my own bias here. I also own a God Helmet and have done many tests and modifications to the equipment, and added some other features.

The basics are simple. Electromagnetics is only one source/cause of many for visual experiences, in this case a type of brain sensitivity that is usually related to temporal lobe seizures. 
It isn't Persinger's attempt to discredit all forms of spirits, ghosts, or apparitions. It is simply a fact that some people do experience things when you change the EM fluctuations in specific ways for specific periods of time.
A woman he investigated was sleeping next to a clock radio producing the correct electromagnetics to stimulate her temporal lobe seizures and produce her sexual demons. She was a devoted Catholic with some serious suppression going on. The man he investigated was living in a house that was improperly grounded and it was affecting his already unstable temporal lobe seizures. Etc.
So, not everything is electromagnetic, or caused by electromagnetic changes. Once that is clear, your questions are not related to his studies or results.

• How do you explain hauntings that seem to target people rather than locations e.g. the Batzel haunting featured in the documentary? I find it very unlikely that every house the Batzels moved into, including the final one they built themselves, was on a site of geomagnetic activity.
  

There are a lot of hauntings that appear to target specific people, for sure. There are also a number of facts, and theories. One of the more well-known facts is that many of these subjects do have temporal lobe seizures. These aren't the type of seizure you would notice much in your daily life. So we have one set of common variables that includes aberrations in the brain of the person experiencing these apparitions. These people are often very sensitive to electromagnetic changes.

A group of people experiencing something is a different story. Refer to things like the 1972 Philip Experiment for obvious group situations involving poltergeist activity. These are not the electromagnetic anomalies we are referring to.

Persinger was partially building on previous ideas by people like Hughlings Jackson and his “parasitic consciousness”. There are many forms of hallucinations that can be caused by any number of reasons. So that is one obvious area to decipher when looking at hauntings. We all know of schizophrenia and even mold or medications that can cause visual hallucinations. The hauntings would, of course, never ALL be one thing or have one source or explanation.

The Glatzel family haunting was assumed to be entities. I find that is also a legitimate possibility until we can rule that out. This far down the road it would likely be impossible to even investigate this properly for real answers.

The Warrens concluded that David was possessed by 43 demons... 

Not that I hold the accounts of the Warrens as fact or proof of anything, but I find it interesting that Catholics like the Warrens appear to have so many issues with demons, and then assume that Catholic methods can control them. I'm not a fan of demons or religions like theirs. So my bias kicks in when I have to tolerate the Warrens as if they have any facts or science to offer us.
Which brings us to the next question.

• How is it possible for the ghostly activity to subside following some paranormal investigations that manage to 'free' the spirit(s)? Is this a case of the Placebo Effect overpowering the electromagnetic waves or does the geomagnetic activity just conveniently die down around these times?
  

It certainly could be placebo. We have to leave all possibilities on the table until we can rule them out. Following up to see if these spirits are actually gone would be necessary. And again, in this case, they certainly could be an entity of some kind. To claim it is never a placebo is often something biased because we want the answer to be ghosts, or demons in this case.

We have to stay very aware of the fact that some temporal lobe seizure entities are generated by very slight changes in electromagnetic fields because some people are sensitive to them, and these are often the people with divergent neural networks and/or temporal lobe differences. So this isn't a one-size fits all explanation, but one of many.

• How plausible is it that geomagnetic activity would cause those living in these locations to perceive the exact same apparitions (veridical), as has been reported numerous times?
  

This would not be plausible unless the electromagnetic activity is interesting to some apparition, or Tulpa, or Egregore, perhaps as a source of energy. Try approaching this from a different angle. These sightings are not likely just electromagnetic in nature. If they are related, as is the case with some of the Holy locations where electromagnetic deviations have been measured, I would add that many of these places also have ELF and infrasound deviations, as well as many years of Egregore-like energy accumulating.

• To what extent are electromagnetic waves affecting brainwaves capable of causing poltergeist activity such as the scribblings on the walls the Batzels described? The Batzels even took photos apparently of these drawings...
  

Again, I don't think electromagnetics are the cause of poltergeist activity, or stimulating it, or causing these types of encounters. These are likely actual entities, or extensions of the psyche, or any of a multitude of other possibilities. 

• Just how powerful are these natural electromagnetic waves? We know stimulated waves can affect us to some degree, but do these natural ones have the same level of effect?
  

This is, again, dependent on the person.

The NIH study:
Influence of electromagnetic fields on the circadian rhythm: Implications for human health and disease

Two types of people who react to solar disturbances were described earlier based on HRV measurements and autonomic nervous responses, those who react by producing a parasympathetic response and those who react by increasing sympathetic tone. As described above, a parasympathetic response may reflect a compensation to maintain homeostasis, whereas a sympathetic response may be due to a lower capacity to maintain equilibrium in response to stress. In this sense, perhaps solar and electromagnetic disturbances may contribute to disease development mainly in susceptible and aging individuals.

So we already have a major difference in individual reaction. No reaction, which is the most common, a parasympathetic response to maintain balance, and a sympathetic stress response.

When you add that some people have ongoing temporal lobe seizures that react to EM fluctuations, you would need to include if they are parasympathetic or sympathetic in reaction, and we could likely add a number of other physical relationships that would decide whether we see ghosts or not.

We should also include the fact that 3 people, in the same room, looking in the same direction at the same time, can all perceive something different. In my own case, I was seeing a blue cloud of energy with sparks shooting around, another person saw absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, and the person with mental health issues saw that blue cloud of energy as a mass of bugs trying to crawl all over them. Perception and processing of that perception is a filter. We usually assign our own structure to things invisible to our standard sensory systems, and those are often colored by our own beliefs. We even fill in the details, right or wrong, when we glaze over our surroundings and look at them. 

So, hopefully that helped to explain what Persinger was doing. He did end up blocking Ingo Swan's RV ability with a fluctuating EM field, and he collected data from Ingo, Sean Harribance, and others during successful Psi phenomena, like telepathy.