Discussion split from: NDE Multimedia Resource Thread

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(2020-11-03, 01:04 PM)tim Wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFWw5unao7c

[Image: maxresdefault.jpg]
Near-Death Experience in an Avalanche | An Interview with Monika Dreier-Leuthold - YouTube
During an Alpine Ski Tour in the area of Oberalp (Switzerland), Monika Dreier-Leuthold was hit by an avalanche and was carried along with it. The time she sp...
www.youtube.com


This is a short piece (with a small addition from another piece about her) that appeared in the Blick newspaper there. I'll delete this in a couple of days (not the video of course). Monika also had an out of body experience which is not mentioned here but it is in the interview (from Thanatos).    

.................................................

An emotionally affecting account. No veridical content, but still very hard to explain neurologically and/or psychologically. Why would there be some sort of preexisting neurological or psychological mechanism to confabulate an intense, convincing and reassuring hallucination, especially when it very much seems that death is coming fast? Such an experience would have no evolutionarily selectable adaptational value. Of course, the pseudo-skeptics would then assume that the creative confabulation occurred in the brain later, some sort of psychological stress and trauma-relieving mechanism operating on coming back into ordinary consciousness, neurologically back-dated in such a way that it seemed to have occurred during the actual trauma. There are many fatal problems with this "explanation" however, including there being many veridical NDEs showing the clear nonlocality (quality of not being located in the brain) of consciousness.
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(2020-11-03, 06:27 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: An emotionally affecting account. No veridical content, but still very hard to explain neurologically and/or psychologically. Why would there be some sort of preexisting neurological or psychological mechanism to confabulate an intense, convincing and reassuring hallucination, especially when it very much seems that death is coming fast? Such an experience would have no evolutionarily selectable adaptational value. Of course, the pseudo-skeptics would then assume that the creative confabulation occurred in the brain later, some sort of psychological stress and trauma-relieving mechanism operating on coming back into ordinary consciousness, neurologically back-dated in such a way that it seemed to have occurred during the actual trauma. There are many fatal problems with this "explanation" however, including there being many veridical NDEs showing the clear nonlocality (quality of not being located in the brain) of consciousness.

@18.46 she reports viewing the scene from out of the avalanche and the attempts of her husband etc to find her. I've been tracking this case for years, waiting for it to be translated (maybe thinking about doing it myself) and as I remember from various articles she's featured in, all that she saw was accurate. 

And sceptics will say anything, because anything is always better than a separate consciousness.
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(2019-12-20, 12:43 PM)Enrique Vargas Wrote: Absolutely horrifying, nightmarish Russian NDE with visions of eternal hell. It's the second Russian NDE of that nature I've seen. She is describing various parts of hell where the sinners are tortured eternally for different sins. I haven't herd an NDE this horrible from Western experiencers. Is this cultural, religion-based idiosyncrasy? If it is, why htose affect our perception of the afterlife? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xnBYdMUNVQ

Forgive me as I am in a bit of a hurry to do something else so I haven't watched the video yet but I'd just like to mention that I have started reading a text from the late 19th century about this very subject of hellish conditions in the afterlife. The text is freely available in PDF form at various sites if you are interested and there's a Goodreads review of the book here:

A Wanderer in the Spirit Lands

I think the point is that we create the conditions of our own afterlives by our beliefs, desires and personal tendencies. So we might find ourselves in such realms if we believe that is what is waiting for us, if we carry a lot of guilt or if we have few redeeming traits such as compassion, empathy, love or kindness. Others, it seems, might pass though such conditions briefly - as depicted in the Brazilian film, Nosso Lar.

Again, as I mentioned in another thread here, I don't believe in judgement or punishment. These are conditions that personalities create for themselves. As for glimpsing them in an NDE - I have long suspected that those glimpses are possibly views which are provided for those who are able to return to this life and recount their experiences. Some will be positive experiences but others are shown the "dark side".
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
(This post was last modified: 2020-11-03, 09:03 PM by Kamarling.)
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(2020-11-03, 08:57 PM)Kamarling Wrote: Forgive me as I am in a bit of a hurry to do something else so I haven't watched the video yet but I'd just like to mention that I have started reading a text from the late 19th century about this very subject of hellish conditions in the afterlife. The text is freely available in PDF form at various sites if you are interested and there's a Goodreads review of the book here:

A Wanderer in the Spirit Lands

I think the point is that we create the conditions of our own afterlives by our beliefs, desires and personal tendencies. So we might find ourselves in such realms if we believe that is what is waiting for us, if we carry a lot of guilt or if we have few redeeming traits such as compassion, empathy, love or kindness. Others, it seems, might pass though such conditions briefly - as depicted in the Brazilian film, Nosso Lar.

Again, as I mentioned in another thread here, I don't believe in judgement or punishment. These are conditions that personalities create for themselves. As for glimpsing them in an NDE - I have long suspected that those glimpses are possibly views which are provided for those who are able to return to this life and recount their experiences. Some will be positive experiences but others are shown the "dark side".

Isn't there a little bit of personal bias in there, though, Dave ? We all have it even if we don't express it, I suspect. Personally, I'm just going to leave the question open until my own demise because I've tried without success to make any consistent sense of how it might work. 

Nothing objectionable with your view, though, other than aren't some souls being too lightly excused from their heinous crimes ?
That old bogey, Hitler comes to mind as always. Of course, I can understand the nonsensical futility of kicking his backside (literally) for eternity, but I could certainly understand him being made to feel the pain of every person he harmed and that must be beyond imagination. Maybe that's your 'punishment', in line with what is reported in some NDE's ?
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(2020-11-04, 12:36 PM)tim Wrote: Isn't there a little bit of personal bias in there, though, Dave ?

I could ask you the same. All I am doing is repeating what I have read in various sources. Some of those sources are the NDEs that you follow so closely. So I believe that the message is that we are not judged even if we might have a guided review of our actions. Again, from what I have read, we may be faced with viewing the consequences of those actions and feeling those consequences from the perspective of those who have been harmed by our actions. 

The speculative part of my previous post results from the fact that some of the things often reported in NDEs are not described in some post-mortem accounts that I have read. So these accounts often don’t describe the life review. Some do describe passing through the dark regions. But almost everything I have read confirms that we are the architects of our own experience after our physical death.  I would imagine that a personality like that of Hitler would generate unimaginably dark and horrifying conditions. I even read once that some such souls are beyond redemption and effectively face dissolution. I don’t know if there is a consistent and common experience but the more I read, the more I doubt it. The maxim of “you create your own reality” seems to operate in a much more direct and consequential manner than we are used to in this life.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
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(2020-11-04, 01:27 PM)Kamarling Wrote: I could ask you the same. All I am doing is repeating what I have read in various sources. Some of those sources are the NDEs that you follow so closely. So I believe that the message is that we are not judged even if we might have a guided review of our actions. Again, from what I have read, we may be faced with viewing the consequences of those actions and feeling those consequences from the perspective of those who have been harmed by our actions. 

The speculative part of my previous post results from the fact that some of the things often reported in NDEs are not described in some post-mortem accounts that I have read. So these accounts often don’t describe the life review. Some do describe passing through the dark regions. But almost everything I have read confirms that we are the architects of our own experience after our physical death.  I would imagine that a personality like that of Hitler would generate unimaginably dark and horrifying conditions. I even read once that some such souls are beyond redemption and effectively face dissolution. I don’t know if there is a consistent and common experience but the more I read, the more I doubt it. The maxim of “you create your own reality” seems to operate in a much more direct and consequential manner than we are used to in this life.

Well of course you could ask me. So I'll assume you've asked me and my response is that I simply don't know, and have no certainties about it whatsoever. I would  like to know what happens to the wicked or those that behave in a wicked manner but I'm not persuaded one way or the other (yet) by anything I've heard so far, though that could change (albeit I doubt it) 

Just to clarify about NDE's. The main point of interest about them has always been that they are suggestive of a separate consciousness. In that respect, I come at them from being largely interested in the veridical content but not exclusively, of course. 

This position suits me but it's not a criticism of your position, that's fine, but I'm still going to be curious.
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(2020-11-04, 01:27 PM)Kamarling Wrote: The maxim of “you create your own reality” seems to operate in a much more direct and consequential manner than we are used to in this life.

That idea has been proposed as an explanation for why we come here at all. That is, the material world slows everything down sufficiently that we can observe our thoughts materialising into our reality over a slower and more manageable timescale. Without that material drag (it is proposed) our thoughts would instantly manifest, resulting perhaps in a chaotic tumbling or becoming trapped within our own dream-creation.

I only state that as a hypothesis, not something I support or oppose.
(This post was last modified: 2020-11-04, 05:07 PM by Typoz.)
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(2020-11-03, 08:57 PM)Kamarling Wrote: Forgive me as I am in a bit of a hurry to do something else so I haven't watched the video yet but I'd just like to mention that I have started reading a text from the late 19th century about this very subject of hellish conditions in the afterlife. The text is freely available in PDF form at various sites if you are interested and there's a Goodreads review of the book here:

A Wanderer in the Spirit Lands

I think the point is that we create the conditions of our own afterlives by our beliefs, desires and personal tendencies. So we might find ourselves in such realms if we believe that is what is waiting for us, if we carry a lot of guilt or if we have few redeeming traits such as compassion, empathy, love or kindness. Others, it seems, might pass though such conditions briefly - as depicted in the Brazilian film, Nosso Lar.

Again, as I mentioned in another thread here, I don't believe in judgement or punishment. These are conditions that personalities create for themselves. As for glimpsing them in an NDE - I have long suspected that those glimpses are possibly views which are provided for those who are able to return to this life and recount their experiences. Some will be positive experiences but others are shown the "dark side".

This is a common New Age view of crime and punishment - that it essentially is the soul in the afterlife creating its own redemptive processes of understanding and forgiveness (both on the part of the perpetrator and of the victim). The understanding part supposedly includes being compelled to experience at least some of the anguishing suffering in others caused by the previous personality. I have always thought such a system lets the guilty off much too easily, but maybe that underestimates just how difficult such an experiential review might be. 

The perspective of this philosophy is of course that the physical life, no matter how filled with suffering (or for that matter cruelty to others), is extremely temporary, an eyeblink, in the life of the soul, and the former human personality after physical death sooner or later comes to a deep realization of this as his personality merges with soul consciousness. In this process the human personality supposedly never loses itself, never loses its sense of being "me". This is very hard or impossible to understand, and has to be accepted on faith. Anyway, this deep realization includes putting the importance of this suffering in its proper place as a very temporary circumstance that was intended or at least accepted by the soul for its learning value, or as an inevitable concomitant to other but positive results accomplished by the physical life. As can be seen, in this philosophy the soul is a very much different being from the human personality, and the human personality does not persist indefinitely as the central core of the being. 

So in this New Age philosophy, from the perspective of the soul, suffering on the part of the last human personality is of limited importance, being very temporary and experienced by just a tiny part of the total soul consciousness. 

Just how we as humans are to take this (its justness or otherwise) is another matter entirely.
(This post was last modified: 2020-11-05, 05:31 PM by nbtruthman.)
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(2020-11-05, 05:27 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: This is a common New Age view of crime and punishment - that it essentially is the soul in the afterlife creating its own redemptive processes of understanding and forgiveness (both on the part of the perpetrator and of the victim). The understanding part supposedly includes being compelled to experience at least some of the anguishing suffering in others caused by the previous personality. I have always thought such a system lets the guilty off much too easily, but maybe that underestimates just how difficult such an experiential review might be. 

The perspective of this philosophy is of course that the physical life, no matter how filled with suffering (or for that matter cruelty to others), is extremely temporary, an eyeblink, in the life of the soul, and the former human personality after physical death sooner or later comes to a deep realization of this as his personality merges with soul consciousness. In this process the human personality supposedly never loses itself, never loses its sense of being "me". This is very hard or impossible to understand, and has to be accepted on faith. Anyway, this deep realization includes putting the importance of this suffering in its proper place as a very temporary circumstance that was intended or at least accepted by the soul for its learning value, or as an inevitable concomitant to other but positive results accomplished by the physical life. As can be seen, in this philosophy the soul is a very much different being from the human personality, and the human personality does not persist indefinitely as the central core of the being. 

So in this New Age philosophy, from the perspective of the soul, suffering on the part of the last human personality is of limited importance, being very temporary and experienced by just a tiny part of the total soul consciousness. 

Just how we as humans are to take this (its justness or otherwise) is another matter entirely.

I'm not sure that I agree with this summary.

I don't feel able to offer a better alternative exposition of the ideas, since it isn't something I've studied as such. Nevertheless I feel there is a misunderstanding and consequently a misrepresentation in your description. There may be factual points on which I feel a sense of unease, as well as in the theory elaborated upon.

I can't put my finger on it, I think because my memory is not nearly as good these days as it was when I was younger, so I read things, listen to talks, absorb the content and derive a sort of instinctive understanding. But I can't explain the specific details on which i base my view. Suffice to say, I don't particularly resonate with what has  been expressed, something seems off.
(2020-11-05, 07:34 PM)Typoz Wrote: I'm not sure that I agree with this summary.

I don't feel able to offer a better alternative exposition of the ideas, since it isn't something I've studied as such. Nevertheless I feel there is a misunderstanding and consequently a misrepresentation in your description. There may be factual points on which I feel a sense of unease, as well as in the theory elaborated upon.

I can't put my finger on it, I think because my memory is not nearly as good these days as it was when I was younger, so I read things, listen to talks, absorb the content and derive a sort of instinctive understanding. But I can't explain the specific details on which i base my view. Suffice to say, I don't particularly resonate with what has  been expressed, something seems off.

I described this New Age philosophy not as a philosophy I believe in and that I am trying to promulgate, but as a conglomeration of concepts that have been taught by various spiritual channellers and which I think may at least be pointing in roughly the correct direction (i.e of truth whatever that is whether we like it or not). One in particular comes to mind, the teachings of Ron Scolastico's Guides. I wish you could put your finger on what is off.

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