Close to proof of extra-physical consciousness during NDE?

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In another thread (https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-michael-nahm), I had occasion to review Michael Nahm's excellent runner-up prize winning essay in the Bigelow contest, and discovered an obscure veridical NDE case that seems unique.

It turns out that for at least one veridical NDE there is actual documented experimental clinical research fMRI data clearly showing that the brain can be completely dysfunctional and inactive during prolonged coma, while during the same time period the patient still was conscious and experienced full recall of events that occurred around his body. This seems to close to proving that for this period of time the patient's consciousness could not have been generated by his physical brain, but that it must have existed somehow separate and independent of his brain. The only rebuttal from materialist neuroscience could be the claim that there somehow was the massive amounts of coordinated activity supposedly needed for consciousness going on somewhere else in the patient's brain even during this vegetative coma-like state, activity somehow not showing up in the deep fMRI scans. Neurological activity level is exactly what the fMRI scans are designed to detect. This excuse is not plausible at all. Of course the materialist could also as a last resort claim fraud on the part of the researcher. 

I think AWARE II also accumulated a few cases a little like this, except the data was from EEG recordings, and more able to be challenged.

From https://www.bigelowinstitute.org/wp-cont...idence.pdf, pg. 16:

Quote:"In a book introducing his work with developing modes of communication with nonresponsive patients in vegetative states, neuropsychologist Adrian Owen described what happened to one of his patients, Juan. In order to gain detailed insights into the activity of the brain in nonresponsive patients, including its deeper layers, Owen used fMRI scanners. These highly sophisticated apparatuses enable physicians to evaluate whether there might be a conscious individual inside a nonresponsive body. In Juan’s case, repeated scans showed practically no sign of conscious awareness. The characteristic patterns of activity in brain regions signaling awareness in response to applied stimuli were almost completely absent although his eyes were open. Consequently, he was regarded entirely unconscious. Weeks later, however, Juan awoke from his coma. To the amazement of Owen, Juan had a full recall of his two visits to Owen’s laboratory. He was able to describe everything that happened correctly and remembered the physicians involved."

(Derived from Owen A (2017), Into the Gray Zone. A Neuroscientist Explores the Border between Life and Death. Scribner, New York, NY.)

Quote:"Juan’s case is exceptional in that it is the only case of which I am aware in which a person’s brain was monitored deep down into its depths and showed no sign of awareness—but the patient nonetheless remembered everything. Owen had no explanation for these occurrences. Such cases highlight that, at present, neurophysiological models cannot account for conscious awareness during apparent states of unconsciousness such as in critical NDEs or Juan’s evident coma."
(This post was last modified: 2023-12-28, 12:01 AM by nbtruthman. Edited 1 time in total.)
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I have tried to fact check this statement from Michael Nahm:

Quote:In Juan’s case, repeated scans showed practically no sign of conscious awareness.

I don't think Adrian Owen has published any fMRI imaging for Juan Torre's case (maybe Nahm believes exaggeration promotes understanding?):

Quote:Although the fMRI tests were inconclusive (Torres moved too much in the scanner), “we assessed him [behaviourally] several times that week,” says Damian Cruse, a former research scientist in Owen’s lab who is now a lecturer in psychology at the University of Birmingham.

https://macleans.ca/society/health/the-s...-recovery/
(This post was last modified: 2023-12-28, 02:25 PM by sbu. Edited 7 times in total.)
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(2023-12-28, 02:12 PM)sbu Wrote: I have tried to fact check this statement from Michael Nahm:


I don't think Adrian Owen has published any fMRI imaging for Juan Torre's case (maybe Nahm believes exaggeration promotes understanding?):


https://macleans.ca/society/health/the-s...-recovery/
I've consulted an electronic copy of Owen's book, Into the Grey Zone, to get some more information.

Based on what Owen wrote, Nahm's summary seems basically accurate but perhaps slightly exaggerated. Here's the key text: https://pasteboard.co/yQzJgHbbOeJ5.png
(This post was last modified: 2023-12-28, 02:57 PM by RViewer88. Edited 2 times in total.)
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(2023-12-28, 02:51 PM)RViewer88 Wrote: I've consulted an electronic copy of Owen's book, Into the Grey Zone, to get some more information.

Based on what Owen wrote, Nahm's summary seems basically accurate but perhaps slightly exaggerated. Here's the key text: https://pasteboard.co/yQzJgHbbOeJ5.png

Thanks for posting this. I don't like Nahm's summary of this case. He should have written that even though the auditory cortex was responsive the scans showed no response in the frontal and parietal regions of the brains, areas thought crucial for conscious thought. Certainly, the case is intriguing, but it's less sensational than how it's portrayed in this thread.
(This post was last modified: 2023-12-28, 03:53 PM by sbu.)
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