Christof Koch on NDEs

Thanks for bringing this up, Tim.

I have watched the Youtube video above, and was glad to hear that Pim van Lommel said that the 100 cases in our book The Self Does Not Die constitute proof for him.

However, for some, such as the very nice Steven Laureys (I know him personally - yes, he is very likeable and openminded) these proofs cannot be more than anecdotes. The problem with anecdotes is that, however true they may be, they cannot be 'scientific' proof... according to him and his fellow scientists for whom the only way to do science is strictly controlled experiments, not just one time, but preferably very many times.

My personal take is that such assumption is in fact ridiculous. And also the way in which Dr Koch thinks the problem could be solved: let some have a NDE while in an fMRI scanner... Suppose that this may happen: someone having a massive heart attack while in such a machine... And then afterwards seeing that the brain has fizzled out...  Yet, the patient reports a wonderful NDE with veridical aspects. And what would happen then? Will it be accepted as proof? Forget it: cognitive dissonance will play up and thus simply deny the entire event...

Smithy

I enjoy your responses here and appreciate your inside viewpoint.  Testing of Psi is a large discussion, but the problem is that the process is not understood.  The answers from measuring physical outcomes of a DOE is NOT ever going to address a gain in information.  Maybe I am insulated -- but all outcomes of telepathy and veridical concepts from an NDE are not based on a physical outcome.

If Psi outcomes are not physically measurable, as in your above illustration, then it is logically ridiculous for DOE's that presume a physical measurement as relevant data, to have a valid result.

There is good news.  Science researchers can gather data on informational outcomes, leading to a process model where simulation produces patterns that match natural patterns around Psi events.

Is there any focused research in this area that can be pointed out?  I would see Ray Moody's "Final Words Project" as being in the informational vein.

Thanks for bringing this up, Tim.

I have watched the Youtube video above, and was glad to hear that Pim van Lommel said that the 100 cases in our book The Self Does Not Die constitute proof for him.

However, for some, such as the very nice Steven Laureys (I know him personally - yes, he is very likeable and openminded) these proofs cannot be more than anecdotes. The problem with anecdotes is that, however true they may be, they cannot be 'scientific' proof... according to him and his fellow scientists for whom the only way to do science is strictly controlled experiments, not just one time, but preferably very many times.

My personal take is that such assumption is in fact ridiculous. And also the way in which Dr Koch thinks the problem could be solved: let some have a NDE while in an fMRI scanner... Suppose that this may happen: someone having a massive heart attack while in such a machine... And then afterwards seeing that the brain has fizzled out...  Yet, the patient reports a wonderful NDE with veridical aspects. And what would happen then? Will it be accepted as proof? Forget it: cognitive dissonance will play up and thus simply deny the entire event...

Smithy

Agreed. And I'm glad you're obviously feeling better now, Smithy and you're back to your research etc !

Yes Tim,

I am so much better now... actually, close to 100%. My heart functions appear to have improved considerably over the past year.
Anyway, it was a tremendous experience, the massive heart attack I had on July 26, 2018.
Pim van Lommel, who saw my hospital report, said that it was a true miracle that I survived and eventually recovered so well.

One "sad" thing though: I did not experience an NDE..  

Smithy

Yes Tim,

I am so much better now... actually, close to 100%. My heart functions appear to have improved considerably over the past year.
Anyway, it was a tremendous experience, the massive heart attack I had on July 26, 2018.
Pim van Lommel, who saw my hospital report, said that it was a true miracle that I survived and eventually recovered so well.

One "sad" thing though: I did not experience an NDE..  

Smithy

One "sad" thing though: I did not experience an NDE..

It was just great that you survived, Smithy ! Of course an NDE would have been a real bonus. However, it does demonstrate at least that NDE's do not necessarily/automatically happen to people just because they have knowledge of them, as some sceptics like to assume. If that was the case, you should have had a real 'humdinger' of an NDE !

The answers from measuring physical outcomes of a DOE is NOT ever going to address a gain in information.  Maybe I am insulated -- but all outcomes of telepathy and veridical concepts from an NDE are not based on a physical outcome.

If Psi outcomes are not physically measurable....

You apparently consider it a basic principle that no totally new information is ever going to issue from a psychic phenomenon event. Why should this be the case, and how can it be the case when numerous mediumistic communications have included unique communications from the deceased (or something) clearly stamped with the personality of the deceased. And there have been cases where mediumistic communications revealed previously unknown pieces of information that were later confirmed (such as the Chaffin's Will case for instance). And there have been cases of musical compositions channeled by mediums, like Marjorie Brown's. In the latter case the information of the unique musical compositions certainly never existed anywhere before being channeled by the psychic.  

Also, how can all outcomes from telepathy and veridical NDEs not be based on the physical outcomes when it is indeed the physical outcomes in terms of the audible voice vibrations of the receivers of telepathy and the experiencers of the NDEs that are how the investigators learn about the veridical results? Psi outcomes have to be physically measurable to be known by the investigators.

Yes Tim,

I am so much better now... actually, close to 100%. My heart functions appear to have improved considerably over the past year.
Anyway, it was a tremendous experience, the massive heart attack I had on July 26, 2018.
Pim van Lommel, who saw my hospital report, said that it was a true miracle that I survived and eventually recovered so well.

One "sad" thing though: I did not experience an NDE..  

Smithy

Of course, as has been theorized, perhaps in the case of the great majority of near-death experiencers (including yours), all conscious memories of the experience are erased due perhaps to neurological issues. These issues would include a possible built-in mechanism that normally inhibits the formation of such memories, for reasons of the soul. It has always been a mystery why so few cardiac arrest and other victims have NDEs that they can report.

Of course, as has been theorized, perhaps in the case of the great majority of near-death experiencers (including yours), all conscious memories of the experience are erased due perhaps to neurological issues. These issues would include a possible built-in mechanism that normally inhibits the formation of such memories, for reasons of the soul. It has always been a mystery why so few cardiac arrest and other victims have NDEs that they can report.

Well, there is often talk of a 'filter theory' of consciousness. I think we need a related theory for memories, something I might hesitatingly call a 'key theory' of memory. My suggestion is that memories are not stored in the brain, but are in some way external. In normal brain operation keys are created within the brain, which can trigger or guide access to the actual memory. During cardiac arrest, the ability to create these keys may be limited as brain function is compromised.

There are occasional instances of the rich NDE being gradually recalled much later, maybe weeks or even years after the event, previously hidden memories may come to light.

Of course I'm no expert on these matters, but I do think memory deserves special attention.

You apparently consider it a basic principle that no totally new information is ever going to issue from a psychic phenomenon event. 

On the contrary,  I am asserting that measurable information structuring bound with the associated altered outcomes, as evidence-based data for Psi.  Measurable information objects with fungible semantic meaning are generated from an NDE, a waking experience of deep meaning, a prophetic dream, remote viewing or a personal insight that someone emotionally close is in trouble.  These are the exact events that are recorded occurring in all cultures and in all times.   

I am simply strongly advocating for those Psi researchers who document information transfer - without physical signal.  It's as simple as that.    example = Final Words Projects.  There is real communication going on about impending changes in state.

http://www.finalwordsproject.org/

There is pragmatic scientific progress to be made with well-formed data about the increased understanding and personal realization manifested by interactions that are not sourced as physical communication.

I am confused by your second set of comments, are you saying that others around Joan D'Arc could have heard her "inner messages"?

Of course, as has been theorized, perhaps in the case of the great majority of near-death experiencers (including yours), all conscious memories of the experience are erased due perhaps to neurological issues. These issues would include a possible built-in mechanism that normally inhibits the formation of such memories, for reasons of the soul. It has always been a mystery why so few cardiac arrest and other victims have NDEs that they can report.

Thanks for this response.

Yeah... memory... The remarkable thing is that I remember everything of my entering the hospital, including the fast transport to the ICU of the gurney I lay on...
After that... nothing. As was reported afterwards they had to resuscitate me.
The next morning I woke up in a hospital bed, and I had very clear conversations with nurses and doctors... the latter telling me that within a few days I had to undergo an open-heart operation.

I remember clearly that I asked the anesthesiologist whether he was aware of the "nightmare" of every anesthesist (and patients for that matter): anesthetic awareness. The man was taken by surprise... apparently he never had met a patient who knew something of his trade... But he was honest: yes, he was aware of that phenomenon and alway took precautionary actions to prevent such a horrible thing. That made me feel at ease.

Strangely though I cannot remember at all that, and when, I was transported to an OR.

I came to with a tube in my throat, hence could hardly communicate.
My wife told me that she and three of my close friends were at my bedside and as they told me afterwards, they could communicate with me. That is, I responded by nodding yes and no... To them these noddings all made sense.

But.... I cannot remember one thing of this encounter. Not a bit...
Neither is there any memory of what could have been an NDE of sorts...
I have given up pondering about this...

Somehow I have the feeling that "the other side" prohibits to remember what happens to those on the verge of death.
After all, it is only one in six people who are clinically dead, that experience an NDE.

Regards to all

Smithy

I've mentioned this before, Smithy (you will remember). Evert Ter Beek is a very good example of the random nature of actually having a near death experience. He had four close run ins with his heart (arrests and attacks) before on the fifth reporting a NDE. 

Pam Reynolds had to undergo a second operation on her brain only two weeks after the first one (another aneurysm apparently). No second NDE.